If I am not going to eat PAS PALTER what does that include, ceral, pretzels, like corn bran i was told is not Pas Palter its not Pas its Corn but it has flour so what are the gedarim?
Jonathan Baker doesn't allow anonymous comments so I'm posting this here.
I think the big problem with musar is that the 'end game' - for want of a better term - of the Torah is not articulated within the system; there is all this stuff about character refinement but no concrete sense of what it is supposed to do for you except make you a better person in some way. If you contrast this with chasidus, for example the Piasezno who is about the clearest I have seen ('modern' chasidus ;-)) ), he lays down an avoda which is designed to take you through to the clearly designated end point of a shift in your level of consciousness so that, overlaid on the physicality that you see, you also see the shemos. Hispashtus hagashmiyus, hasogas Elokus. As he says, the difference between someone who learns kabbolo and and chosid who learns kabbolo is that the former opens etz chayim, reads that bread is three shemos Havaye, then looks at his sandwiches and wonders what it is all about. The chosid mekubal, who has shifted, looks at his sandwiches, sees three shemos Havaye on them, and opens etz chayim to find out more. But if you just learn musar you don't get any of this.
i appreciate that this sort of stuff is concealed in the seforim, but only to the extent that if you don't know about it then you won't 'chap' what you are reading. Once you have twigged, and appreciate what the terminology means, the sifrei chasidus open up.
If you're a chosid, then that's your goal, maybe. But since R' Chayim Volozhin, kabbalah has not been relevant to the Litvish velt, yet still, mussar grew and developed there.
>if you just learn musar, you don't get any of this
who says that that's what one must get?
people got along fine as yidden without etz chayim for 3100 years, seeing the sandwich as a sandwich.
where in Torah is it stated that one must see the sandwich as sheimos?
my understanding of aishdas, and of mussar in the modern world, is not that one must subscribe to a particular hashkofo, but that one must find a hashkofo that works for them, and become passionate about it. if the system that works for them is kabbolo/chassidus, good for them. If it's something else, that's good too.
as for anonymous comments, so? register for a blogger id. it doesn't have to be your real name. mine isn't, but then I don't make any great secret of who I am. You can find that out with about 10 seconds of clicking around my blog.
but there's nothing that says you have to leave any identifying info publicly visible when you get a blogger id. I had one long before I started writing seriously on the blog.
I think it is clear that this shift in perception is what the Torah really wants - lemaan yed'u, that you should know, direct experiential knowledge of the Divine. Look in Moreh Nevuchim ch 1,2; there he speaks about this shift in perception and links it to the chet of odom harishon, in which we of course all have a chelek. The effect of the chet is the loss of higher perception, so the tikkun gains it back.
Since shabsai zvi the litvishe olom has avoided kabbolo; but then you lose the essence of what it is all about as well.
Just had a look at your blog; lot of hard work there. But I think if you read the Rambam correctly, you will get the answer to the Satmar Rebbe, that teshuva has to take you somewhere. The Rambam is not a rationalist in the sense of a 'cold intellectual contemplation of the ultimately unknowable God' at all. What he speaks about is 'hasogo sichlis', the faculties of nefesh hasichlis, which is the highest part of us, the part that perceives the Divine; as I noted this part is lost after the chet and our awareness is limited to the physical. Real teshuva happens when we return to who we really are, spiritual beings, and know ourselves, and the Divine of which we are a part. This leads to a dual perception, of the physical and the spiritual as I wrote. Chapters 3 to 6 or 7 of the Moreh speak about this dual perception, showing how the same words are used for the differing levels in different places. Nothing intellectual about that. Also see Rabenu Bachaye on the word 'Zelem', where he quotes the Moreh. The capacities of nefesh hasichlis (re'iyah sichlis', or re'iyas halev) are of course those required by the traditional healer, and explain the Rambam's extraordinary reputation as a doctor.
If I am not going to eat PAS PALTER what does that include, ceral, pretzels, like corn bran i was told is not Pas Palter its not Pas its Corn but it has flour so what are the gedarim?
ReplyDeleteI got my answer Hir hurim did a whole shtikle on it thanks.
ReplyDeleteJonathan Baker doesn't allow anonymous comments so I'm posting this here.
ReplyDeleteI think the big problem with musar is that the 'end game' - for want of a better term - of the Torah is not articulated within the system; there is all this stuff about character refinement but no concrete sense of what it is supposed to do for you except make you a better person in some way. If you contrast this with chasidus, for example the Piasezno who is about the clearest I have seen ('modern' chasidus ;-)) ), he lays down an avoda which is designed to take you through to the clearly designated end point of a shift in your level of consciousness so that, overlaid on the physicality that you see, you also see the shemos. Hispashtus hagashmiyus, hasogas Elokus. As he says, the difference between someone who learns kabbolo and and chosid who learns kabbolo is that the former opens etz chayim, reads that bread is three shemos Havaye, then looks at his sandwiches and wonders what it is all about. The chosid mekubal, who has shifted, looks at his sandwiches, sees three shemos Havaye on them, and opens etz chayim to find out more. But if you just learn musar you don't get any of this.
i appreciate that this sort of stuff is concealed in the seforim, but only to the extent that if you don't know about it then you won't 'chap' what you are reading. Once you have twigged, and appreciate what the terminology means, the sifrei chasidus open up.
If you're a chosid, then that's your goal, maybe. But since R' Chayim Volozhin, kabbalah has not been relevant to the Litvish velt, yet still, mussar grew and developed there.
ReplyDelete>if you just learn musar, you don't get any of this
who says that that's what one must get?
people got along fine as yidden without etz chayim for 3100 years, seeing the sandwich as a sandwich.
where in Torah is it stated that one must see the sandwich as sheimos?
my understanding of aishdas, and of mussar in the modern world, is not that one must subscribe to a particular hashkofo, but that one must find a hashkofo that works for them, and become passionate about it. if the system that works for them is kabbolo/chassidus, good for them. If it's something else, that's good too.
as for anonymous comments, so? register for a blogger id. it doesn't have to be your real name. mine isn't, but then I don't make any great secret of who I am. You can find that out with about 10 seconds of clicking around my blog.
ReplyDeletebut there's nothing that says you have to leave any identifying info publicly visible when you get a blogger id. I had one long before I started writing seriously on the blog.
thanbo,
ReplyDeleteI think it is clear that this shift in perception is what the Torah really wants - lemaan yed'u, that you should know, direct experiential knowledge of the Divine. Look in Moreh Nevuchim ch 1,2; there he speaks about this shift in perception and links it to the chet of odom harishon, in which we of course all have a chelek. The effect of the chet is the loss of higher perception, so the tikkun gains it back.
Since shabsai zvi the litvishe olom has avoided kabbolo; but then you lose the essence of what it is all about as well.
Thanbo,
ReplyDeleteJust had a look at your blog; lot of hard work there. But I think if you read the Rambam correctly, you will get the answer to the Satmar Rebbe, that teshuva has to take you somewhere. The Rambam is not a rationalist in the sense of a 'cold intellectual contemplation of the ultimately unknowable God' at all. What he speaks about is 'hasogo sichlis', the faculties of nefesh hasichlis, which is the highest part of us, the part that perceives the Divine; as I noted this part is lost after the chet and our awareness is limited to the physical. Real teshuva happens when we return to who we really are, spiritual beings, and know ourselves, and the Divine of which we are a part. This leads to a dual perception, of the physical and the spiritual as I wrote. Chapters 3 to 6 or 7 of the Moreh speak about this dual perception, showing how the same words are used for the differing levels in different places. Nothing intellectual about that. Also see Rabenu Bachaye on the word 'Zelem', where he quotes the Moreh. The capacities of nefesh hasichlis (re'iyah sichlis', or re'iyas halev) are of course those required by the traditional healer, and explain the Rambam's extraordinary reputation as a doctor.
By the way, I've enabled anonymous comments. We'll see how it goes. If I get a lot of spam, I'll turn it off again. But for now, welcome.
ReplyDelete:-) it's ok. I don't write that much. doing is more important...
ReplyDelete