I erred in my assumption that the organizers were at fault for the limited definition of "Klal Yisroel" implicit in the Citi Field event. Today, in response to the post, I received this communication from a reliable source:
Hi Rabbi Bechhofer!
How are you? I just saw your blog, for the sake of honesty I do want to point out that one of the organizers did contact me to involve OU Rabbis (and others on the "left"). OU wasn't interested. He met also with Rabbi Lerner about YI Rabbis. Not sure what they said.
So I do think they were trying to be inclusive.
I regret not having been dan l'kaf zechus. On the flip side, I am deeply disappointed in the "left" institutions that evidently refuse to recognize the reality of the far-reaching problem of the generation.
Your criticism may, once again, be a bit rash.
ReplyDeleteWere the "left leaning" institutions who were contacted asked to promote the event or to take part in it?
I have no idea what the answer is, but if the siyum hashas is any indication, they may well have been invited to attend but not to have any influence over what ideas are shared there.
I have no additional information.
ReplyDeleteby inclusive do you mean inviting OU rabbis to speak at the event?
ReplyDeleteThere are a million reasons for the left not to get involved in this. It is not evident at all that they are not worried about the internet
And Rav Schechter gets invited to Daf Yomi completion ceremonies and then winds up tucked off on a corner of the stage so no one will see him. Is that really progress?
ReplyDeleteHere's the real scandal: the entire Asifa can be summarized on a single piece of paper in two sentences:
1) The internet is evil
2) Use it only with permission of your local Godol.
And yet they're spending how much to spend hours just to do that?
Garnel, that is not true.
ReplyDeleteFrom what I hear they concede that the Internet is here to stay, and is part of a 21st century life. They will push yeshiva.net type providers, but at a minimum, a K9 filter.
I do not understand why the "left" would disagree with this position.
No surprise here. You're perfectly inline with the rest of the blogging world where - First we attack the Charedim and its leaders, then we apologise when we realized we erred.
ReplyDeleteEmunas Chachomim is not about understanding Gedolim, but about trusting them. Something the blog world sorely lacks. You've proved it twice, I hope there won't be a third time
The OU is very concerned and has already done a lot and continues to do more. Keep reading Jewish Action and you'll see.
ReplyDeleteBut what good does an asifah do for the OU community? Or for any community? I don't get it.
Gil, what was the point of Hakhel? Couldn't they read the passages on any given Yom Tov? Or have the local Rabbi read them?
ReplyDeleteI have no idea what the answer is, but if the siyum hashas is any indication, they may well have been invited to attend but not to have any influence over what ideas are shared there.
ReplyDeleteWhat ideas would they like to share at the siyum hashas? I wasn't aware there were disagreement about daf yomi.
"But what good does an asifah do for the OU community? Or for any community? I don't get it."
That's an entirely different discussion. The question was who is causing a pirud.
In general we'll probably have a better idea from may 21 and on.
Gil,
ReplyDeleteI disagree.
Some things are hard to fight on one's own, and easier when one feels part of a collective effort, a great movement.
Moreover, the inspiration of an event done right can give the right impetus to push one over the tipping point.
Finally, the kedusha of a collective event is a force multiplier.
You have the most influential Orthodox blog. Perhaps you can get the ball rolling? If just a few "left" leaders seek to participate and seek representation in the program - maybe?
Did you read Dovid Teitelbaum's letter about the Asifah? I'm with him. From what I hear, none of the big roshei yeshiva are going.
ReplyDeletelink
In this past weeks yated, the asifa ad had the support of:
ReplyDeleteRav Aharon Feldman
Rav Shmuel Kamenetsky
Novominsker Rebbe
Rav Moshe Wolfson
Rav Aharon Schechter
Rav Dovid Feinstein
I just realized that your original point (about the limited definition of "Klal Yisroel") was really right.
ReplyDeleteWhen the promoters write "We're ALL coming together" when they don't expect ALL, they're writing people out of "Klal Yisroel" - even if they did invite them.
Just because they're not pushing the same solutions doesn't mean they don't acknowledge an issue. The point of the "asifa" is clear, and it's not something a non-Charedi would agree with.
ReplyDeleteBy the way, if it is "all Klal Yisrael": Did they invite any non-Orthodox figures?
have you ever been mildly disappointed? are you always deeply disappointed?
ReplyDeletewhats with being the self-appointed village scold?
theres another perspective, not yours. different folks, different strokes. your position is not absolute truth, just your perspective, nothing more.
a little humility, please.
"Just because they're not pushing the same solutions doesn't mean they don't acknowledge an issue. The point of the "asifa" is clear, and it's not something a non-Charedi would agree with."
ReplyDeleteLet me get this straight. If we invite non charedim we're pushing our solutions on them, and if we don't we're being divisive. Correct?
The signatures on the Kol Koreh to attend need to be taken with a grain of salt. Investigation has revealed that one is an outright forgery and another was put in even though he actually agreed to something different.
ReplyDeleteThis Asifa is the brainchild of R. Salomon. I know him from England and Lakewood. He does give a good vaad in Shaarei Teshuva and his books are popular amongst the mussar crowd but, with his forgiveness, I wouldn't reckon him a Gadol in learning by any stretch of the imagination. It isn't a lack in Emunas Chachamim to question the motivation, wisdom and execution of this Asifa.
Rav Matisyahu Solomon is one of the greatest lamdanim in chutz l'aaretz.
ReplyDeleteThey may have reached out to... some... of gthe more Centrist organizations. But they did not reach out to all... certainly not to YU.
ReplyDeleteBut even if they did... and were not successful in attracting them, they should not be calling this an exercise in Achdus. If there are segments that do not attend (for whatever reason)than it shouldn't be billed that way.
The fact that they do bill it this way shows that they don't really see those of us in the Center or Left as part of the Klal. And that is insulting!
Do you have any evidence that he is "one of the greatest lamdanim in chutz l'aretz"?
ReplyDeleteI have spent many hours with him and I didn't see it.
But people do say that 'Hearts Full of Faith' is inspiring.
Nachum:
ReplyDeleteCan you please elaborate? When I discussed the issue with my shiur this morning, the consensus was that there is a problem, but nobody wants to deal with it.
To the several people who noted that the original point remains intact:
This is certainly true, it is the question of responsibility for the issue that my new information put into question.
To all:
Does anyone know if Chabad was invited to participate? By participation, I mean whether their Rabbonim and Askanim were invited to join the relevant committees and councils.
"...they should not be calling this an exercise in Achdus. If there are segments that do not attend (for whatever reason)than it shouldn't be billed that way.
ReplyDeleteThe fact that they do bill it this way shows that they don't really see those of us in the Center or Left as part of the Klal"
I think (but don't know) that they are hoping Jews all across O will attend even if there aren't official organizations there. The ads for the Asifa often feature yeshivish and modern people standing together with the slogan "we're all coming together".
If that's true, it's irrelevant whether there's a little OU logo on the ad as well.
From what I hear, even amongst the Charedim, few are going voluntarily.
ReplyDeleteWhichever "Gedolim," Roshei Yeshiva, and Rabbonim will be there, it will be because they were pressured to do so. They, in turn, will pressure their "followers."
Furthermore, the goal is to make sure that the seats are filled, not that the right people will be reached.
I would guess that if YU Roshei Yeshiva were invited -- and given a role both in the planning and the speech-making -- they would be there. The fact hat this has not happened -- and will not happen -- tells you a great deal about the lack of achdus here, other than the most superficial kind: Bragging Rights, only for show.
A presence there by Rav Shachter -- a REAL presence, as one of the speech-makers -- would have sent a strong and needed message both to the Modern Orthodox world and to the Yeshivishe oylam that poo-poos the dangers of Internet.
However, that was not to be, for it was more important to include busloads of Yiddish-speaking Chasidim and Lakewood right-wingers, neither of whom has internet and both of whom would have boycotted the event had Rav Schachter been honored.
Might be beating a dead horse at this point, but did any of the non-Chareidi periodicals have advertisements for the event?
ReplyDeletehttp://theantitzemach.blogspot.com/2012/05/poetic-justice.html
ReplyDeleteRav Kotler said that or not?
You regret your criticism b/c someone tells you they did ask YU and YI Rabbis? That doesnt make sense. They chose not to go, so who cares if they were asked? The bottom line is, its not a gathering of "klal yisrael". [And of course I note the absence of any non-orthodox representation, who are assuredly part of klal yisrael.]
ReplyDeleteAs for why these organizations would not go, thnk about it. In the first case it would be a pegam in their kovod, bc they simply would be patted on the head like good little lap dogs, as though they were the minor leagues compared to the Agudah world's major leaugue. To quote a favorite line of Rabbi Sherer, it would "confer legitimiacy" on that viewpoint.
Additionally, while the ads acknowledge the internet is vital, its only after years of telling everyone the internt is assur. Why would the YI and OU want to associate themselves with the rabbis who degrade the Torah with such wishy-washy positions?
Finally, the whole asifah smacks of the shittah that says we have to hide from the world, and only make begrudging concessions "when it is neither night nor day." It's an Agudath Israel viewpoint, a viewpoint the broader orthodox world does not share.
anyway, whatever their reasons are, den them le-kaf zchus, as you say, that they have their reasons, and in now ay does it indicate a lack of conern for the internet problems.
DF
DF:
ReplyDeleteYou are right, of course, the critique of the narrow definition of "Klal Yisroel" remains in place.
I only meant to clarify that the blame for this sorry state of affairs may not be unilateral.
Which signature is the forgery?
ReplyDelete