Good discussion; I appreciated the inquiry into what motivates the intense interest in extra "technical tsiniut." What I notice is the frequent comparison by women like that of tsiniut to Torah. An underlooked motivator might be a feeling of jealousy and alienation from something they recognise as being extremely important, but to which they have very little meaningful access. I don't mean envy because Torah is important, but wanting Torah for its own sake and feeling it to be out of reach. Rarely do I see this fixation by women, in any community, who do learn.
I hear R. Kivilevitz's complaint that women in "modern communities" "twist the words" of lenient poseqim -- but so many choices in life are not between a perfect world and a bad one, but between different kinds of challenge. Unsurprisingly I prefer a world where male and female Jews learn more, have a more secure attachment so to speak, and clothing-tsiniut is left unpoliced, even if that means not everyone gets it right. (Leaving aside the question of what's right here and how that gets determined, but accepting it on R. K.'s own terms.)
Side note about Reform Jews at the Wall and how they don't like the idea of a Temple anyway. I'm not sure if she was Reform or not, but I did know a bat kohen z"l in that organisation who used to lead the avodah service on YK at an egalitarian, emphatically-not-Reform minyan. She was all about the Bet HaMiqdash, whether 1st, 2nd, or future 3rd, and certainly showed no ethical apprehensions about qorbanot, which she hoped a male or female כהן/ת גדול/ה would offer speedily in her days. I can't speak for how that would work from her perspective. But it's a big world, and the assumptions that used to be quite fair about egalitarian (and other!) Jews don't necessarily hold these days.
As far as tznius, some of the Modern Orthodox justify their actions by saying , "Well Rav _____'s wife didn't cover her hair, or wear long sleeves, and he was Orthodox!" (Of course, that may have been 60 years ago but once a heter, always a heter I guess.)
As far as the Charedi side, it seems like there is a constant game of "raising the bar" even though the actions may be extra-halachic. Doesn't matter. One will never reach the standards of the chumra-setters because they always have to be on top. This is why we have women with burkas and cults that community leaders can't excise. Why? Because "Isn't it so beautiful how they are so ultra-dedicated."
Soo last decade or earlier.. Hey,for your crowd this is the goose that keeps laying golden eggs Most charedim(-lite) are acting in practice nowadays little different than modox (that is,what they claim to be at least), just happens with a previously "raised bar". These cases are exceptions .
Good discussion; I appreciated the inquiry into what motivates the intense interest in extra "technical tsiniut." What I notice is the frequent comparison by women like that of tsiniut to Torah. An underlooked motivator might be a feeling of jealousy and alienation from something they recognise as being extremely important, but to which they have very little meaningful access. I don't mean envy because Torah is important, but wanting Torah for its own sake and feeling it to be out of reach. Rarely do I see this fixation by women, in any community, who do learn.
ReplyDeleteI hear R. Kivilevitz's complaint that women in "modern communities" "twist the words" of lenient poseqim -- but so many choices in life are not between a perfect world and a bad one, but between different kinds of challenge. Unsurprisingly I prefer a world where male and female Jews learn more, have a more secure attachment so to speak, and clothing-tsiniut is left unpoliced, even if that means not everyone gets it right. (Leaving aside the question of what's right here and how that gets determined, but accepting it on R. K.'s own terms.)
Side note about Reform Jews at the Wall and how they don't like the idea of a Temple anyway. I'm not sure if she was Reform or not, but I did know a bat kohen z"l in that organisation who used to lead the avodah service on YK at an egalitarian, emphatically-not-Reform minyan. She was all about the Bet HaMiqdash, whether 1st, 2nd, or future 3rd, and certainly showed no ethical apprehensions about qorbanot, which she hoped a male or female כהן/ת גדול/ה would offer speedily in her days. I can't speak for how that would work from her perspective. But it's a big world, and the assumptions that used to be quite fair about egalitarian (and other!) Jews don't necessarily hold these days.
Excellent points all around.
ReplyDeleteAs far as tznius, some of the Modern Orthodox justify their actions by saying , "Well Rav _____'s wife didn't cover her hair, or wear long sleeves, and he was Orthodox!" (Of course, that may have been 60 years ago but once a heter, always a heter I guess.)
As far as the Charedi side, it seems like there is a constant game of "raising the bar" even though the actions may be extra-halachic. Doesn't matter. One will never reach the standards of the chumra-setters because they always have to be on top. This is why we have women with burkas and cults that community leaders can't excise. Why? Because "Isn't it so beautiful how they are so ultra-dedicated."
Soo last decade or earlier..
DeleteHey,for your crowd this is the goose that keeps laying golden eggs
Most charedim(-lite) are acting in practice nowadays little different than modox (that is,what they claim to be at least), just happens with a previously "raised bar".
These cases are exceptions .