Friday, September 01, 2006

Correspondence re Shiur Seudah vs. Shiur Kevi'as Seudah

From: Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
To: YR

There is a chilluk between the shiur of seudah and the shiur of seudas keva (or, kevi'as seudah). For dinim d'orysa which are dinei achilah, the shiur is obviously Halacha l'Moshe me'Sinai. But for Bentching, which is imposed by Rabbanan in a broader range of cases than the Torah itself requires, the definition is not an objective Torah definition, but a subjective definition which may differ based on the specific individual and his circumstances. That is why most Misnagdim negate the idea of a "Mezonos Roll" and why some Briskers al pi an obscure shittah in the Hagahos Ashri hold that Shabbos is kovei'a l'inyan Bentching just as it is kovei'a l'inyan Ma'asros.


You wrote:

pesachim 44, or at least see rashi there for the source

----- Original Message -----
From: Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
To: YR

Certainly not Halacha l'Moshe Me'Sinai! Mei'heichei tesei?

You wrote:

It seems to be from the sugya in Succah 26 that it is a machlokes as to the shiur of a seudas keva, but wasn't it a HALACHAH L'MOSHE M'SINAI that the shiur of a seudas keva is that of 4 beitzim. Now both of the deyos in succah would seem to differ from this, and there's no room to even be mechalek somehow between them as it is a halachah l'moshe m'sinai?!

Kol Tuv,

1 comment:

  1. I wanted to address a Daf yomi and Hashkafah Inyan me and a friend had an interesting conversation about Kiddish Levanah where I posed the question we say "vein anachnu yachlim lingoah bah" yet Neil Armstrong did and I added it also says "Hashomayim Shamayim Lahashem Vhaaretz Nosson Lbnei Adam" (I heard Rabbi YGB adress this in one of his Navi shiurim talking about aliens and the torah)so two issues today he sent me this email in response:
    Astronauts on the moon - Succah 5a

    We once discussed the possuk 'kshem sheani royked knegdaych veayni
    yochol lingoa boch kach loi yoichloo kol oyvay lingoah bee leraah' (I
    wrote out the whole possuk just b/c it's fun). We tried to figure
    out how astronaouts did land on the moon a few times (although it's a
    rare occurrence and the moon walkers were living in an artificial

    We also discussed the other possuk that says 'The Heaven, heaven is
    for God, and the Earth was given to sons of Adam' (translation mine -
    do you like it?). This possuk also needs explanation in light of the
    fact that many astronauts regularly visit outer space and even live
    there, not to mention commercial aircraft. Well, the Gemara Succah
    5a already asked the question - didn't Moshe and Eliyahu go up to
    Heaven for extended periods of time? The Gemara reaches the
    conclusion that Earth means the actual physical ground up to a height
    of 10 tefachim, and Shamoyim means the actual Heaven (no definition
    given) and up to 10 tefachim below that place. All the airspace and
    atmosphere between those 2 points is neither heaven nor earth and you
    can refer to it arbitrarily as either heaven or earth.

    The Gemara then asks that Moshe actually went up and grabbed
    the 'throne of God' (keesay hakavod), and the gemara assumes that the
    keesay must be in 'Shamoyim'? To this the gemara answers that the
    God picked up the throne and moved it to more than 10 tefachim below
    Heaven in order to allow Moshe to grab on to it - b/c of course Moshe
    did not go into 'Heaven' since Heaven is reserved for God while Earth
    is for people.

    Of course the Gemara asks how it could be that God does not go onto
    Earth, and the gemara answers that God stays above 10 tefachim like
    it says 'God appeared from atop the kapores which is above the aron'
    which we all know is 10 tefachim high (except according to R Yehuda
    who maintains that it's only 8.5 tefachim high)Just wanted to share it with everyone