-------- Original Message --------
| Subject: | More on Mitzvos and Iyun (Was Tznius and ILG) |
|---|---|
| Date: | Fri, 09 Mar 2007 16:28:07 -0500 |
| From: | Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer <ygbechhofer@gmail.com> |
| To: | Avodah <avodah@aishdas.org> |
My colleague wrote, upon seeing my email:
I think this is a fair representation of my view of mitzvos but I'd like to have "salvific" defined as "metaphysical effect upon the neshamah and upon the spiritual fabric of the cosmos leading to the soul achieving a better place after death."
and
BTW the notion that the minutae of kashrus, taharos, korbanos, ketores, safrus etc ad infinitum has rational overt impact towards our refinement seems to me at least patently absurd.Ditto re the study of Tlamud b'iyun. What difference could it have rationally towards my moral refinement to discuss a stirah in rishonim in zevochim???? Or offer a lmudische disscetion of a machlokes.Either it's all supra rational or its just silly.After reading the Kellner book I am even more convinced of the inability of the neo Aristotelean world view to explain Judaism.
To which I say:
1. I think it absurd to regard all that as salvific. Why would the RBSo have us do all these silly things merely to save our souls. And, a refining impact need not be rationally or overtly explainable.
2. It is only such refining (to both reason and emotion) that makes Talmud b'Iyun worthwhile. See above #1.
3. At least I have the Rambam and Rov Rishonim on my side. Kellner, Shmellner...
YGB
Torah is tikkun olam - whether one's maaseh is 'kal' or 'humra' is a choice of 'shita'
ReplyDeleteShammai and Hillel, remember... machlokes l'shem shamayim...
those who choose to do a mitzva so as to satisfy all opinions, will need to know all the minutae...
that's rational...
and supra-rational is between them and H'
Why do you think refinement of character is the primary rather than an ancillary reason for Talmud b'Iyun. It seems to me it is part and parcel of learning Torah Lishma, at least according to some Rishonim. The reason for learning torah b'iyun is to keep the torah (again, a machlokes).
ReplyDeleteYour colleagues position strikes me as downright silly. Even if one assumes mitzvos produce a a "salvific" effect, doesn't that effect come about only if the mitzvah is properly engaged in and fulfilled? Just as I am sure your friend would admit there is no effect achieved by donning tefillin with pasul parshiyos because the mitzvah itself is inherently lacking, so too Talmud Torah absent cognition is inherently a fatally flawed mitzvah that will produce no effect on the soul.
ReplyDeleteI'm too lazy to check, but IIRC one is not permitted to say birchas hatorah on torah sheb'al peh if one does not understand what one is learning, but the same is not true with regards to torah sheb'kasv. Perhaps this is indicative of an underlying difference.
Why in the last rashi in meggilah is the oder flipped from Kimmu viKibblu
ReplyDeleteKibblu vkimmu
In tzidkas hatzaddik yud zayin is it a proper understanding that rav tzadik is saying that learning is not to be done at night?
ReplyDeleteIsrael Penhos said...
ReplyDeleteWhy do you think refinement of character is the primary rather than an ancillary reason for Talmud b'Iyun. It seems to me it is part and parcel of learning Torah Lishma, at least according to some Rishonim. The reason for learning torah b'iyun is to keep the torah (again, a machlokes).
I think "Lo nitnu ha'mitzvos elah l'tzaref bohem es ha'berios" includes all mitzvos, l'rabbos Talmud Torah.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteWhy in the last rashi in meggilah is the oder flipped from Kimmu viKibblu Kibblu vkimmu
Because that's the right order. Chazal darshen from the order in the Megillah "kimmu mah she'kiblu kvar" because its not in the logical order.
ספר צדקת הצדיק - אות יז
ReplyDeleteיז) זמן עבודת הפועל רק ביום כמו שנאמר (תהלים ק"ד כ"ג) יצא וגו' עדי ערב ולכן אמרו (עירובין ס"ה.) אנן פועלי דיממא אבל ליליא לשינתא רק כי יזיף ביממא פרע בליליא [ועיין בתלמידי רבינו יונה ברכות ח' ע"א משמע דכן הלכה]. רק מכל מקום מצאנו גבי מלאכת בית המקדש בברכות (ב' ע"ב) סלקא דעתך דמקדמי ומחשכי גם בלילה ולמסקנא נמי רק משום דהוצרכו הלילה למשמר. ועיין שבת (פ"ט ע"ב) אמרינן דל פלגא דלילותא. ונראה דגם בכל עבודת ה' הלילה רק למשמר כמו שמובא (זוהר חלק א' כ"ז.) לשמרה זו מצות לא תעשה וכמו שאמרו (עירובין צ"ו.) דכל מקום שנאמר השמר וגו' הוא לא תעשה והיינו שלא יעשה עבירות ולכך בשינה די על דרך שאמרו בפרק קמא דעבודה זרה (י"ט ע"ב) יכול יגרה עצמו בשינה וכו' עיין שם:
Anonymous said...
In tzidkas hatzaddik yud zayin is it a proper understanding that rav tzadik is saying that learning is not to be done at night?
It's a strange Reb Tzadok, because it evidently contradicts the Rambam who says that most of one's learning is accomplished at night:
רמב"ם יד החזקה - הלכות תלמוד תורה פרק ג
(יג) אף על פי שמצוה ללמוד ביום ובלילה אין אדם למד רוב חכמתו אלא בלילה לפיכך מי שרצה לזכות בכתר התורה יזהר בכל לילותיו ולא יאבד אפילו אחד מהן בשינה ואכילה ושתיה ושיחה וכיוצא בהן אלא בתלמוד תורה ודברי חכמה אמרו חכמים אין רנה של תורה אלא בלילה שנאמר קומי רוני בלילה וכל העוסק בתורה בלילה חוט של חסד נמשך עליו ביום שנאמר יומם יצוה ה' חסדו ובלילה שירה עמי תפלה לאל חיי וכל בית שאין נשמעים בו דברי תורה בלילה אש אוכלתו שנאמר כל חשך טמון לצפוניו תאכלהו אש לא נופח כי דבר ה' בזה זה שלא השגיח על דברי תורה כל עיקר וכן כל שאפשר לו לעסוק בתורה ואינו עוסק או שקרא ושנה ופירש להבלי עולם והניח תלמודו וזנחו הרי זה בכלל בוזה דבר ה' אמרו חכמים כל המבטל את התורה מעושר סופו לבטלה מעוני וכל המקיים את התורה מעוני סופו לקיימה מעושר וענין זה מפורש הוא בתורה הרי הוא אומר תחת אשר לא עבדת את ה' אלהיך בשמחה ובטוב לבב מרוב כל ועבדת את אויביך ואומר למען ענותך להטיבך באחריתך:
But I think כד דייקינן שפיר
I think he is actually talking abour practical Avodah, not learning Torah.
From my colleague:
ReplyDeleteThe question before us is, simply stated,
" Is there a tikkun of the individual Jewish soul (relevant to this world and the next) and of the spiritual fabric of existence which takes place when a male Jew studies Torah which requires yegiah, even though we cannot perceive it?"
And if the answer is yes, does this yield, the notion, simply stated that,
"It is good to learn with weak talmidim things that tax them mentally, which mekubal in Klal Yisroel is the Talmud."
The Rav Tzadok Question The answer is the chiyuv of Limud Torah is not at night but the higher level of learning from AHAVAH of course is at night as it is known the Chassidim learn OHR HACHAIM on THURSDAY NIGHTS davka.
ReplyDeleteRYGB,
ReplyDeleteIf we are to be as general as that, then the Torah (and Mitzvot) are also meant to be "salvific"..."H. Hirba Lahim Torah Umitzvot...."
I am not sure why you are setting this up as a dichotomy. Please elaborate.
"Ratzah l'Zakkos" - to make Zach, a la "Shemen Zayis Zoch."
ReplyDeleteIf mitzvos are salvific, there is no need to plan, to progress, to accomplish.
There is only to do.
No?
Maybe that's what lezakkos means. That doesn't seem to be the pshat... I always assumed it just meant give them opportunities to accrue merit in G-d's eyes, hence give them (more) olam habah.
ReplyDeleteAll I'm saying is that mitzvot are both for salvation and refinement (or purification), and Chazal don't mean it davkah when they say lo nitnu ela.
What I want to know is why you picked Talmud torah to contrast these two, rather than, say, eating kosher, or kibbud horim, or hanachas tfilin.
I heard Rabbi Blochman of KBY once give an in depth and lengthy discussion on the topic of i'yun. Without going into the proofs and other important surrounding information, he basically wanted to say that i'yun is an indispensible tool required to satisfy the mitzvah of to love or know G-d. B/c knowledge of another (or love which can really only come from knowledge) comes from a merging of minds. That happens when the two minds understand how each one thinks and their thought method. G-d provided us with, kavayochol, His thought method -or at least how He wants us to interpret it in this world- through the Torah -chachmas Elokim-; and true Torah knowledge is only grasped through i'yun. Thus, when we look at the importance of the mitzvah to love or know G-d relative to other mitzvahs we can expand the critical nature of iyun ...
ReplyDeleteI did not learn at KBY or the like, I happened to have caught this lecture once upon a time; I enjoyed his remarks.
Tzvi G.
Rav tzadok on his Mamir on Nissan in Tzidkas Hatzadik says Jews are compared to the moon because of our Mesorah,So why is it Yishmael is so into it: Red crescent, top of mosques? Any Ideas?
ReplyDeleteHere is a real definition of 'Iyun'; I think the moral aspect is quite clear. It comes from the lexicon of philosophical
ReplyDeletewords at the beginning of Rabenu Saadia Gaon's famous Emunos Vedeos,
the philosophical work of the day in it's time. The author writes
about the functions of the sechel - which is of course translated as
the intellect. See what you think.
'Sechel Haiyuni
This is divided into four levels. The first is the ability to grasp
basic priniciples, those which a person knows instinctively, and needs
no proof, for example that a whole apple is greater than a half apple,
or a diagonal of a square is greater than its side etc. The second
level, is the capacity for a person to produce results from general
principles, as in grammar (where one produces speech from the
grammatical rules) etc. This is called acquired intellect, as it is
acquired by a person from first principles and from the senses. And
the third level, is the power by which a person percieves the natural
form (zurah tivi'is) of all that exists in the lower world, and he
will divest it, by virtue of this sechel, from the physical form that
bears it, and with this sechel he will meditate on the essence of the
soul of man, as long as it is in the envelope of the body. And with
(this sechel) he will understand the principles of things and their
spirituality. And the fourth power is that with which a person will
grasp the forms that are purely spiritual, like the angels, and the
essence of the nefesh of man, after its separation from the body, and
similar things; all are the fourth level of sechel iyuni. And all
these four levels are called in general sechel iyuni, where the first
type of sechel (which deals with speech, and everyday activities) is
called sechel maasi, and where this everyday mind is called 'speaker'
(medaber), the sechel iyuni is called 'knower'. And in all aspects of
this sechel iyuni, it will say only true and false, and it will not
say good or bad, for it is not possible to say that the diagonal of a
square is larger than the side is a good thing, rather one would say
that this is a true thing, and similarly in all its areas....'
That pshat in L'zakkos may be found in the Meshech Chochmo on "Mishchu u'Kechu" by Korban Pesach. He says a similar vort in the Intro to Vayikra.
ReplyDeleteAccording to R' Blochman, can women not fulfill the mitzvah of Ahavas Hashem?
ReplyDeleteRav tzadok on his Mamir on Nissan in Tzidkas Hatzadik says Jews are compared to the moon because of our Mesorah,So why is it Yishmael is so into it: Red crescent, top of mosques? Any Ideas?
ReplyDeleteYes. Their Koach of Tefilla is such that they too can have an impact being mashlim the Beriah.
ספר פרי צדיק ראש חודש תמוז - אות ג
וזה שאמרו בגמרא (חולין ס' ע"ב) אמר הקדוש ברוך הוא הביאו עלי כפרה על שמיעטתי את הירח וכו' שבשעיר ראש חודש כתיב לחטאת לה' שכביכול השם יתברך אומר שהכל היה ממנו שהוא ברא כך היצר הרע שיהיה מיעוט הירח סיהרא בחינת כנסת ישראל שיהיה כ"ד שעי מיכסי סיהרא (כמו שאמרו ר"ה כ ע"ב) דהיינו ברישא חשוכא ואחר כך מתחיל להתנוצץ אור קטן הולך ואור בכל פעם יותר וזה שאמר עלי דייקא. בהיותם מקריבים לפניך זבחי רצון ושעירי חטאות לכפר בעדם שמדת עתיקא נקרא רצון שהוא רצון הפשוט. ואחר זה מתחיל סדר המדות חו"ב וז' מדות ז' ימי בראשית. וזה שבסוף התפלה אומרים יהיו לרצון אמרי פי וגו
Thank you for the answer regarding Rav Tzadok
ReplyDelete