Dear YGB, I read on your blog that you think masturbation is selfish. I am a young guy and enjoy doing it. From a psychological perspective it is a positive expression of sexuality. The reason why it is my ultimate goal to stop is because that is the halachic reality. However masturbation is completely normal and there is absolutely nothing perverted or selfish about it.
I would appreciate It if you explain what you mean, and if you thing I am entitled to disagree with you and still be considered an orthodox jew.
Thanks for your time.My response:
Sorry for the delay.
That you enjoy doing something does not make it right. The Rambam tells us that we must understand that to eat a ham sandwich is very pleasurable and enjoyable, and that we nevertheless refrain from it because of Ratzon Hashem.
If sexuality was given by God to his creatures as a means of bonding (not to mention procreation), I fail to see how how one can assert that solitary sexuality is a positive psychological activity.
Hence, I am not sure on what basis you assert it to be "normal." Perhaps by societal norms, but not by the norms expected of us by our Creator.
Since perversion is a societal norm, it is in constant flux and cannot be an objective measure. Homosexuality was once regarded by greater society as a perversion, and now it is not.
As to being selfish, the more proper term is self-centered.
You certainly are entitled to disagree with me and still be considered an Orthodox Jew. But your arguments here are based on self-validated premises, not on solid reasoning.
I am happy to continue the conversation. I will be blogging it, leaving you anonymous, of course.
KT,
YGB
Well you could look at this way: if sex was only about procreation then it would be forbidden for a married couple where one is infertile (example post-menopausal). Clearly then there is the idea of giving pleasure to another as part of the process. The husband still has to pleasure his wife (the onah thing).
ReplyDeleteWith masturbation there is an element of pleasure but it's self directed - the guy will have his orgasm, thank you very much, but without having to give to anyone but himself. Self-centred would work better as selfish implies that the guy could choice between intercourse and masturbation and chooses masturbation because he doesn't want to waste time pleasuring his wife.
"When I was young, we were so poor that I hadn't been a guy I wouldn't have had nothing to play with." Redd Foxx
Olam Hafuch Hu
ReplyDelete5 years ago no mainstream blogger would touch this topic, now this post has been up for a while and only one comment?
Olam Hafuch Hu
My guess is that the questioner means in today's time. I.e. in the olden days, one got married quite young and was not exposed to immodest women constantly like today. (on the street, TV, interent, clothing stores, billboards, etc.)
ReplyDeleteIn such an immodest world, especially if one does not take steps to limit the exposure, the sexual tension builds and so for someone who is not married and will not be married for years (or perhaps even someone who is married), I could see how one could think that it is a phychologically "normal" thing to do.
However, as the questioner said, it is agianst the ratzon Hashem and is therefore to be avoided just like avoiding a ham sandwhich. It would be like living in a country that only serves ham as its meat and bans all cow, lamb chicken etc. There is ham everywhere and bacon frying on carts on the street. In such a situation, one has a natural desire to eat meat, and may even suffer phychological stress from the deprivation, but that would not make eating it OK or "normal".
At best I would say that (as per a shiur on homosexuality I heard from Rabbi Gottlieb) the current society would possibly make the potential punishment for the sin less due to the massive temptation (i.e. Hashem will show more mercy than perhaps in previous generations). This would not mean one can stop working on eliminating the sin, but can be a conferting thought to someone who starts to feel lost, depressed, a failure, and wants to give up.
I think the questioner's main point is that he doesn't want to feel like the sin is a perversion or selfish, but rather just a lav that is a chok-like (like homosexuality). I do not think one can say that though, as it is self-evidence that self-centeredness is at the heart of the sin, whether it is the cause or the effect, or both.
From the original questioner:
ReplyDelete1.
Thank you very much for your reply, sorry that this email is long but
I feel strongly about these things and think it is very important,
please do post on your blog if you want.
"The Rambam tells us that we must understand that to eat a ham
sandwich is very pleasurable and enjoyable, and that we nevertheless
refrain from it because of Ratzon Hashem."
I am sure there is a rashi somewhere that says that we should actually want to eat non kosher but we don't because it is against the Torah.
Now I don't think we can say this by murder or rape. Think about it,
eating non kosher can be very healthy physically and psychologically.
There is absolutely nothing perverse or evil about eating non kosher food. Yes we must not eat it, simply because it is against halacha.
Why did Hashem tell us not to eat it? I have no idea. Yes there are
meaningful lessons we can learn but ultimately I have no clue.
Let's imagine that a young girl is suffering from anorexia, she can
hardly get herself to eat a thing, let's also imaging that she is
slowly becoming more observant, she decides that she is slowly going
to start eating kosher, she decides to only eat non kosher 3 times a
week and slowly cut down more and more.
Now, keeping in mind that she finds any sort of eating very difficult,
when she is able to get herself to eat a wholesome ham sandwich, what
should her attitude be? Should she say "it was evil and disgusting" or
should she rather say "I am happy that I got my self to eat, this is
positive, I hope to reach the level that I will only eat Kosher."
My point is that there can be things that are against halacha, but on a human level are still positive.
2.
ReplyDelete"If sexuality was given by God to his creatures as a means of bonding
(not to mention procreation), I fail to see how how one can assert
that solitary sexuality is a positive psychological activity."
I agree that sexuality is meant for the bond of a husband and wife,
but sexuality is part of being human, one has urges, that are in a way like the need to eat.
firstly you cannot deny that masturbation is normal, young children even do it and unless it is obsessive no one will say it is a problem.
Secondly think about this, no frum person will say that the sexual
pleasure that one gives ones wife is negative, now she can experience
this physical pleasure alone and most frum people will say this is
negative, but why? I don't think it is. It is a human need that is not
being expressed in the ultimate way, but I would say that this
sexuality is positive. a non jewish sexologist who I spoke to (see
below) could not even begin to understand why my ultimate goal is to stop masturbation she asked "why would you want to stop? you love
yourself!"
"Hence, I am not sure on what basis you assert it to be 'normal.'
Perhaps by societal norms, but not by the norms expected of us by our
Creator."
Hashem created us human we are not angels, deep down I know that
Hashem is reasonable and that he loves me more than I love myself.
Hashem created most males with an extremely strong desire to
masturbate, and I don't think Hashem did this by mistake. I believe masturbation is normal and Hashem obviously knows this, but we as Jews have to try our best, at our own pace to rise above the norm.
3.
ReplyDelete"Homosexuality was once regarded by greater society as a perversion,
and now it is not."
All I will say is that obviously acting on ones homosexual feelings is violating a serious Torah law.
Someone I know recently killed himself, he was homosexual and his
parents could not accept him. But I know that Hashem's Torah is
eternal and laws can't change, but that does not take away from the
struggle.
"As to being selfish, the more proper term is self-centered"
Is it any more "self-centered" than enjoying a chocolate?
"You certainly are entitled to disagree with me and still be
considered an Orthodox Jew. But your arguments here are based on
self-validated premises, not on solid reasoning"
Let me very briefly give you some background for years I tried to stop masturbating unsuccessfully I had the same opinions that you have
about this issue, I regarded masturbation as abnormal and selfish. To cut a long story short, I would feel very guilty and dirty, this lead into a downward spiral of pornography. Eventually I did some really deep introspection and thinking, I realized that at that stage of my life it simply was out of my free will range to completely stop.
I started changing my attitudes and started doing well.
There is a certain charaidy website that was created for frum people
with these problems. When I said I did not believe I could completely
stop they wrote to a frum expert who said that this was my addiction
talking to me and that masturbation could mess up my future marriage.
I took them very seriously and I was very confused because deep down I knew that this was not right.
So I went to a very well known non- Jewish sexologist who told me that
I had no addiction and that my strict religious beliefs were the
problem.
She could not understand why I even wanted to strive to grow in this
area, so I went to a frum psychologist he also said that I had no addiction, but he did not want to discuss my attitude about
masturbation and said I should rather speak to a rabbi.
To sum up i went through turmoil because of this and I think its a big problem in the frum world. Making something natural like masturbating seem like a perverse and selfish problem, and added to this I went through(and still go through) turmoil thinking that a cannot be considered a torah jew because of my "open minded" views.
But I am not trying to say that I must not strive to stop this. But it is even more difficult when you not married.
And I cannot get married yet because I don't have enough money, my parents hardly have enough to live on for themselves so they can't help out, so I am trying to progress in my career but it could be a while before I can afford it.
-->Someone I know recently killed himself, he was homosexual and his
Deleteparents could not accept him. But I know that Hashem's Torah is
eternal and laws can't change, but that does not take away from the
struggle.
Wait Wait Wait hold your horses RYGB, it never occured to you why a supposedly all good Erbishter would create people with a natural urge and then specifically tell them they can't act on it? Rather sadistical of our God now isn't it?
All human have all sorts of urges. Everyone has nisyonos with them. Hashem is telling us that we can conquer them.
DeleteHow should exclusively homosexual folk do that exactly?
DeleteYes they do exist:https://www.thedailybeast.com/just-how-many-lgbt-americans-are-there
I tell them when they come to me.
DeleteWell what do you tell them when they do?
DeleteStill waiting...
DeleteNot going there online.
DeleteIt's a strange thing, isn't it, that we are so disciplined when it comes to prohibited foods and Chillul Shabbos, but we have such terrible problems with sexual self control. Why such a difference?
ReplyDeleteI don't think a direct attack can work. It's like lifting a boulder: it simply can't be done. If you try, all you'll do is seriously damage yourself. But- if you have a lever and fulcrum, the task is doable. Perhaps our task is to psychologically move sexual behavior out of the "impossible to control group" into the "manageable group". How does one do that?
Here are some suggestions. They don't make it easy, but they make it possible.
1. Association.
By mentally associating the act with something you can control- treifus, chillul shabbos, gneiva. Borrow the lifetime of discipline from those and apply it to this.
2. Extreme Mental Focus.
Sexual activity is tied to a twilight state- not a loss of consciousness, but a sort of foggy, dreamy, less intellectual state of mind. At the first sign of loss of control, when you feel yourself going into that dreamy state, don't waste a split second. You have to immediately bring you mind back into focus. Like those guys that try to stay up for three days, and someone is slapping them and saying wake up! wake up!
3. Physical Distraction.
Either demanding physical activity like crunches with your arms out to the side until your stomach aches, or a cold shower. Jews are not very good at cold showers, but I guarantee you'll survive, although it doesn't feel like you will.
Good luck to you.
I fail to see the point of the point trying to be made. You seem to agree that it is assur, and the Gemara says clearly that it is a sin that has a maximum punishment of death from Heaven.
ReplyDeleteWhat difference does it make if it feels or is considered "normal"?
The only difference I see is what I have already commented on, and that is that since it is so accepted in our over-sexed society, that one can assume the mercy and patience of Hashem to allow one to work on removing the sin at a pace that is healthy and will not cause one to sink into depression and dispare.
I don't know if anyone would disagree with that analysis except for chassidim and some kabbalists (who SAY the sin is worse than murder - although I wonder if when they contimplate on recent tragic events, if they really truly beleive that is true).
Perhaps the most complete discussion on the (or "a") Jewish of masturbation can be found at Aishdas:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol01/v01n021.shtml#05 (You'll have to hunt around for the beginning and end of the thread.)
It's from thirteen years ago.
That thread seems extreamly permissive. If that post were true, then things would be very different in the Jewish world.
ReplyDeleteI do not think it is wise to post such a permissive thread unless you are really sure it is a valid psak.
There is a huge difference between a sin called by many "worse than murder" that carries the possible death penelty from Heaven, and a rabbinic fence over a lav... The extreams seem a bit too far from each other for both to be valid views. Am I wrong?
Reuven Meir, you're probably right. In fact, I had intended to mention that the writer who did most of the research (the one who seems extremely permissive) has a "run-in" with none other than R' Bechhofer on one of those pages.
ReplyDeleteDear Reuven Meir, I am the person that wrote the original question.
ReplyDeleteMy basic points are
1)A lot of religious educators tend to mix up psychological problems with spiritual issues, this can have disasters effects. Personally I was told that I have a terrible addiction, and every time a tried to argue and state my opinions I was told that my opinions are all from my addictive mind and are nonsense. Now how do you think I felt when I wrote to experts and afterwards even went to a renowned expert who told me that these educators are actually the ones who are not objectively able to think?
I also wrote to a website that these frum people actually quoted (out of context) to argue against me here is there response http://www.soc.ucsb.edu/sexinfo/question/religious-belief-and-masturbation-discrepancy (note that they shortened my question, I went into more detail)
2)You ask, if I believe that masturbation is against halacha and therefore one needs to strive to grow in this area what difference does it make if I think its normal?
It makes an infinite difference, you might not realize it but there are frum teens that regard themselves as just as perverted as that guy who did that terrible thing to a child.
Secondly I personally just cannot view masturbation as something negative it is probably a mental thing, but as I heard in a shuir by R gotleib Hashem takes mental needs into consideration.
So Reuven Meir, I am interested in what you think of me.
I believe that I have to slowly strive to overcome masturbation but at the same time when I do masturbate I don't look at it as something negative.
Some one told me that I will loose my eternity unless I change my attitude how do you thinks that makes me feel?
I think the only thing that is wrong is "when I do masturbate I don't look at it as something negative."
ReplyDeleteThis is incorrect even according to your view. It is a great negative thing to do a sin agaisnt Hashem. Even it were a guarentee that Hashem would show mercy this time, it is still a very negative thing to do!
As far as your other experiences, I would agree that the education you received was counterproductive and harmful. I cannot relate to it so well since I am a BT and went through college where masterbating was as accepted, common and frequent as getting dressed in the morning.
I do not believe you will lose your eternity for your views, even if they are misguided (my opinion). If pork was found to give great health benifits, we would not lose our eternity by saying eating pork is a positive thing that we cannot do because Hashem doesn't want us to.
BTW in one of your posts you mention getting involved in watching porn. I do not see how even if you feel masterbating is normal that it would have any bearing at all on avoiding the deorysa of "do not stray after your eyes". In fact, the limiting of exposure to immodest women (like MTV, bad internet sites, VS catalogs, etc) is the best way to begin to be able to work on ridding oneself of masturbation.
I also happen to believe that there is an addiction aspect to masturbation in that it is not something one can just "stop doing" at the drop of a hat when told it is forbidden. It is a hormonal stimulant to the brain which is pleasurable and therefore can easily become a phych addiction. This is why you can have a frum person who will completely refrain from a multitude of acts which are desirable because they are agianst halachah, but still can fall many times in the sin of masturbation.
My point is that there can be things that are against halacha, but on a human level are still positive.
ReplyDeleteThis is true, but just as in achilah, which is generally positive, achilah gassah is negative; so too in sexuality, which can be positive, masturbation is negative. (Note: That I am not equating the severity of gluttony with that of masturbation, only the taxonomy.)
Secondly think about this, no frum person will say that the sexual
ReplyDeletepleasure that one gives ones wife is negative, now she can experience
this physical pleasure alone and most frum people will say this is
negative, but why?
Not to obfuscate unnecessarily, but this issue as it pertains to women is different than as it pertains to men. Let's remain focused on the male of the species.
Hashem created most males with an extremely strong desire to
ReplyDeletemasturbate, and I don't think Hashem did this by mistake. I believe masturbation is normal and Hashem obviously knows this, but we as Jews have to try our best, at our own pace to rise above the norm.
I also believe that Hashem created us with a powerful drive for sexuality, but not specifically for masturbation. Once one has become habituated to the act, however, your second sentence is certainly true.
Why do you insist that your opinion is magically God's?
DeleteMagically???
DeleteYou claim to just know why humanity is a sexually reproducing species what's your basis?
DeleteWhat exactly lacks a source? But go see the Introduction to the Sha'arei Yosher...
DeleteBTW having any addiction must satisfy the following criteria
Deletehttps://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK232974/
A. A maladaptive pattern of substance use leading to clinically significant impairment or distress, as manifested by one (or more) of the following, occurring within a 12-month period:
(1) Recurrent substance use resulting in a failure to fulfill major role obligations at work, school, or home (e.g. repeated absences or poor work performance related to substance use; substance-related absences, suspensions, or expulsions from school; neglect of children or household)
(2) Recurrent substance use in situations in which it is physically hazardous (e.g. driving an automobile or operating a machine when impaired by substance use)
(3) Recurrent substance-related legal problems (e.g. arrests for substance-related disorderly conduct)
(4) Continued substance use despite having persistent or recurrent social or interpersonal problems caused or exacerbated by the effects of the substance (e.g. arguments with spouse about consequences of intoxication, physical fights)
B. The symptoms have never met the criteria for Substance Dependence for this class of substance.
Substance Dependence:
A maladaptive pattern of substance use, leading to clinically significant impairment or distress, as manifested by three (or more) of the following occurring at anytime in the same twelve month period:
(1) Tolerance, as defined by either of the following:
(a) a need for markedly increased amounts of the substance to achieve intoxication or desired effect
(b) markedly diminished effect with continued use of the same amount of the substance
(2) Withdrawal, as manifested by either of the following:
(a) the characteristic withdrawal syndrome for the substance
(b) the same (or closely related) substance is taken to relieve or avoid withdrawal symptoms
(3) The substance is often taken in larger amounts or over a longer period than was intended
(4) There was a persistent desire or unsuccessful efforts to cut down or control substance use
(5) A great deal of time is spent in activities necessary to obtain the substance (e.g., visiting multiple doctors or driving long distances), use the substance (e.g., chainsmoking), or recover from its effects
(6) Important social, occupational, or recreational activities are given up or reduced because of substance use
(7) The substance use is continued despite knowledge of having a persistent or recurrent physical or psychological problem that is likely to be caused or exacerbated by the substance (e.g., current cocaine use despite recognition of cocaine-induced depression, or continued drinking despite recognition that an ulcer was made worse by alcohol consumption)
Specify if:
With Physiological Dependence: Evidence of tolerance or withdrawal (i.e., either item 1 or 2 is present)
Without Physiological Dependence: No evidence of tolerance or withdrawal (i.e., neither item 1 nor 2 is present).
For masturbation A is almost never applicable for frum folk only B 2,4 and 7 apply all of which are due to religious beliefs that masturbation is evil.
Is it any more "self-centered" than enjoying a chocolate?
ReplyDeleteIn the abstract, not necessarily!
But the middah is magnified by the emotional activity to which it is attached...
, I realized that at that stage of my life it simply was out of my free will range to completely stop.
ReplyDeleteThis relates very much to Rav Dessler's famous concept of "nekudas ha'bechirah," and you should approach it from that perspective.
b said...
ReplyDeleteZZGG!
Phil said...
ReplyDeletePerhaps the most complete discussion on the (or "a") Jewish of masturbation can be found at Aishdas:
http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol01/v01n021.shtml#05 (You'll have to hunt around for the beginning and end of the thread.)
It's from thirteen years ago.
Reuven Meir said...
That thread seems extremely permissive. If that post were true, then things would be very different in the Jewish world.
I do not think it is wise to post such a permissive thread unless you are really sure it is a valid psak.
Wow! Makes the line from the song go through my head: "When we were young yeshiva boys, way back in '98."
Anyway, the author of that post is a learned person, but not a Torah authority. But be that as it may, he is addressing masturbation among married partners - not our topic here.
Reuven meir-
ReplyDelete"I do not see how even if you feel masturbating is normal that it would have any bearing at all on avoiding the deorysa of "do not stray after your eyes"
You are correct BH I have progressed in that area, and when I masturbate I try not to think about anything.
YGB-
"so too in sexuality, which can be positive, masturbation is negative."
Firstly let me clarify that I am speaking on a human level, I have no idea what the cosmic truth is, and my finite mind cannot begin to grasp it.
But I was given a human mind and that is this only tool I have.
This is probably a bad example but
When there is a tragedy we don't say let's look at this as good and positive because its the will of Hashem. We say duyan haemes, I understand this to mean that yes Hashem has a cosmic plan, but in our human mind a tragedy is a tragedy.
So to (lehavdil) masturbation may be negitive on a cosmic level. But I have I deep psychological need to view my masturbation as a positive act added to this is the fact that the medical experts agree with me (yes I know they can't decide on what is moral and what is not but they can show what is positive on a psychological level irrespective of its moral meaning).
"Note: That I am not equating the severity of gluttony with that of masturbation, only the taxonomy"
Dr sorority quotes rav Dessler saying that wasting seed is a series transgression, how much more so is the sin of wasting time. So I'm not sure if masturbation is worse then gluttony.
http://www.drsorotzkin.com/audio/BoundariesRestrictionsSexuality.mp3
"but this issue as it pertains to women is different than as it pertains to men"
ReplyDeleteBut why? Psychologically its the same (you may disagree but that would not be a religious argument)
The only difference is that halachicaly its more serious for a man, and I can't argue with that, but my point is that masturbation is not at all self centered
"I also believe that Hashem created us with a powerful drive for sexuality, but not specifically for masturbation"
I did not mean that Hashem created sexuality for masturbation, what I am saying is that the vast majority of health frum boys will masturbate, and a lot of them will go through a terrible struggle trying not to. Now they did not make themselves have these urges, they were created that way it is not some sort of mental disorder or a sign of being self centered.
"But the middah is magnified by the emotional activity to which it is attached..."
I don't know what you mean, and in any case even if it is an emotional activity so what? Lets imagine that all you arguments were true but there was no prohibition of masturbating.
Why on earth would I want to stop?
I love myself! I am entitled to give my self pleasure. Most girls don't even view a guy that does this as self centered.
Btw I heard a shuir by Rabbi Zev leff ( who is no fan of masturbation, to put it mildly)
That Yosef was Hzl inorder not to be seduced by potifar's wife.
Was Yosef self centered?
"Btw I heard a shuir by Rabbi Zev leff ( who is no fan of masturbation, to put it mildly)
ReplyDeleteThat Yosef was Hzl inorder not to be seduced by potifar's wife.
Was Yosef self centered?"
If this is true, then it is a simple case of avara lishmah (especially since the mitzvos were not binding on the avos)
I know this is not the direction in which this conversation is going. But are we talking about a D'Oraisa or a D'Rabanan? (If I'm not mistaken, Sefer HaChinuch and Rambam don't list masturbation among 613.)
ReplyDeleteTo anonymous: From my research it seems that masturbation is a deoriysa which is not one of the taryag. It is like a women having to cover her hair, which the gemara says is deorysa but is also not part of the taryag. My best guess as to the status is a mitzvah deorysa but since it cannot be punished with by the courts (makkos), it is not a technical "mitzvah" like a taryag, but is nonetheless forbidden on a Torah level. Rabbi, is this a decent analysis?
ReplyDeleteHere's a better explanation
DeleteChazal worked with the incorrect knowledge of their times which said that masturbation was the equivalent to murder so they assured it.
Absurd. If abortion during the first 40 days is definitely not murder, kal va'chomer...
DeleteKitzur shulchan aruch 151 וְאֵלּוּ שֶׁמְּנָאֲפִים בַּיָּד וּמוֹצִיאִים זֶרַע לְבַטָּלָה, לֹא דַי לָהֶם שֶׁאִסּוּר גָּדוֹל הוּא, אֶלָּא שֶהָעוֹשֶׂה זֹאת, הוּא בְנִדּוּי, וַעֲלֵיהֶם נֶאֱמַר, יְדֵיכֶם דָּמִים מָלֵאוּ, וּכְאִילּוּ הוֹרֵג אֶת הַנֶּפֶשׁ
DeleteRashi Bereshis 38:7 רָעָתוֹ שֶׁל אוֹנָן, מַשְׁחִית זַרְעוֹ, שֶׁנֶּאֱמַר בְּאוֹנָן וַיָּמֶת גַּם אֹתוֹ, כְּמִיתָתוֹ שֶׁל עֵר מִיתָתוֹ שֶׁל אוֹנָן
Gemara Niddah 13b
ואמר ר' אלעזר מאי דכתיב (ישעיהו א, טו) ידיכם דמים מלאו אלו המנאפים ביד תנא דבי רבי ישמעאל
(שמות כ, יג) לא תנאף לא תהא בך ניאוף בין ביד בין ברגל
Other citations which I can't find the vorlage of are from http://www.truekabbalah.org/pages/documents/k00029.htm
Wasting seed is more severe then manslaughter, for here he is spilling his own blood and the blood of his children. In the Zohar parshas vyache it says all evil people can repent except those that commit this sin. In addition a person under the age of mitzvot is not held accountable for his sins except this one, for Er and Onun were underage and got punished. In addition the generation of the flood who were wiped off the face of the earth was only for this sin.
(Sharai Kedusha)
More severe then all sins is one who spills seed, for he spills the blood of his kids for all eternity. In addition all sins can be rectified, but this one has no rectification. (Sharai Kedusha 2/8)
One who spills seed, his punishment is death from heaven. His punishment is like that of the generation of the flood. This verse refers to those that waste seed “Under the trees do they slaughter their children. (Shari Teshuvah)
Know that from all the sins in the torah there is none that create demons like one who spills seed. It comes out, all souls who were to be his children now intermingle with the sitra achara. He takes holiness and turn it to impurity, good into evil (Kaf Hchaim 240)
There is a type of znus that is quite common amongst the young people, they waste their seed. This comes from their ignorance of how damaging this act is. It is an obligation to warn everyone young and old, let them know the severity of these issues until they tremble from fear. Every city should appoint men to watch and teach the people to stay away from this terrible sin.
(Pelah Yoetz ot zayin)
Whoever transgressed this and brought into his mind impure thoughts has sinned terribly, this destroys him from this world. It defiles all 248 limbs and 365 sinews, physical and spiritual. Therefore be extremely careful with this.
(Safer Hamitzvos Hkotzar, Chofetz Chaim)
When a person spills seed many impure forces attach themselves to the hairs of that region, from there are created evil spirits. They are the ones that are called ‘painful afflictions of man’. After he dies they do not leave him since they are his sons, there is no suffering bigger then this, may the merciful one save us. (Shavet Musar 27)
One who spills seed flaws his own thought process as well as the upper knowledge. (Kitvi Ari)
His prayers are not accepted (Shlah 100)
He loses his ability to understand torah (Kav Hayoshar 68)
He causes the lengthening of exile, plagues and all tragedies. His children will also follow the path of evil. (Mam Loez Vayeshev)
Spilling seed destroys the world, it is counted as if he kills someone. This is referred to in the verse “one who slaughters his kids”. (SvT Maharil 4)
Those who destroy their seed bring a flood to this world. (SvT Radboz 596/3)
He will be placed in excommunication, like all those who spill their seed.
(SvT Radboz 161/5)
He gives power to the forces of evil and weakens the tribunal on high as is known to those wise of the truth, the masters of kabbalah. (SvT Yavetz 43/1)...
...
DeleteKnow that a person who spills seed creates spirits of destruction.
(SvT Rav Poalim)
For many were the evil of man... they committed every possible act of evil, however theirfate (generation of flood) was not sealed until they threw their blood down on the floor. What is the meaning of this, they would spill their seed on the ground. (Zohar, Berashis)
Spilling seed is more severe then all sins, since he defiles his soul in this world and the world to come and he does not see the glory of the shichenah. (Zohar Vyeshev)
R’ Yochanan spoke up and said all those who waste seed are punishable by death. Rav Ami said it is as if he sheds blood. Rav Ashi says it is as if he worships strange deities. (Medrish Hagdol Vayeshev)
Rav Acha bar Yashya said whoever wastes seed equates himself to an animal. Just like an animal does not care what it does, so to this person randomly commits this sin. Just like an animal is set aside to be slaughtered and does not receive life in the future world so to this person stands to die and does not live in the future world. (Medrish Hagdol Vyashev)
These are but a handful notwithstanding your opinion.
You do understand that Aggadata is not to be taken literally, right? In any event, all the sources that you cite that are from Chazal are clearly meant to convey the thoughts I have expressed.
DeleteMore from Rav Nachman which don't explicity equate masturbation with murder
Deletehttps://shomerhabris.wordpress.com/tag/spilling-seed/
When one does not guard the Bris, this results from his haughtiness. It is as if he makes himself into a deity, for he shows that he is not satisfied with the holiness of G-D. He therefore flaws the divine name SHKY, for this name represents that one should be content with holiness. When a person does guard the Bris, he merits a light that will guide him in the path of Teshuva (repentants).
[Likutay 1 Torah 11]
One who is not Shomer Hbris damages the 39 divine lights. He draws upon himself the load of earning a living, which are the 39 labors. This is taught in the Zohar, “One who throws bread crumbs on the floor is chased by poverty, certainly this happens to one who threw down crumbs of his brain.”
[Likutay 1 Torah 11]
How does one merit to totally nullify his ego and haughtiness and to pass all honor to G-D, this is done by being Shomer Hbris.
[Likutay 1 Torah 11]
There is an evil that includes the evil of all seventy nations; this is the burning fire of Niuf.
[Likutay 1 Torah 19]
The exile of Egypt came about because of Pgam Hbris. As a result of Pgam Hbris sward (war)comes to the land. This is the concept of the ‘Avenging Sward.”
[Likutay 1 Torah 20]
One who flaws his Bris flaws his Daas (knowledge).
[Likutay 1 Torah 20]
Know, through rectifying the Bris one is saved from the face of the Sitra Achera.
[Likutay 1 Torah 23]
The nation of Yisroel is called holy because they guard the Bris.
[Likutay 1 Torah 23]
One who has rectified his Bris, it is imposable for him to fall into the desire of money.
[Likutay 1 Torah 23]
It is almost imposable for a person to rectify his sins and all their aspects, for they are many. For there are many details and various aspects for every sin. However when one rectifies the Bris, which is the combining element of all channels, he automatically repairs the damage from all his sins.
[Likutay 1 Torah 29]
The main way the nation of Yisroel becomes close to their Father in Heaven is through Tikun Hbris.
[Likutay 1 Torah 29]
Earning a living without effort is the concept of ‘Bread from heaven’ it is possible to receive this through the general rectification which is Tikun Hbris.
[Likutay 1 Torah 29]
When earning money comes only through hard tedious work, it is only because he did not fully rectify the Bris. “One who throws bread crumbs on the floor is chased by poverty, certainly this happens to one who threw down crumbs of his brain.”
[Likutay 1 Torah 29]
There is no permanent Emunah (faith) only through the concept of Bris.
[Likutay 1 Torah 31]
Protection while traveling on the road is dependent on Shmiras Hbris.
[Likutay 1 Torah 31]
Freedom is dependent on Shmiras Hbris.
[Likutay 1 Torah 31]
Every one of the seventy nations excels in one bad trait. The cumulative evil of all seventy bad traits is the desire for Niuf. By abolishing it one does a general rectification. Who ever brakes this desire will easily be able to break the rest of his bad traits.
[Likutay 1 Torah 36]
Saying the above mentioned verses is only works for a person that occasionally falls to such thoughts. Someone who is heaven forbid regular with such thoughts and cannot separate from them, he must cry as he says the Shma.
[Likutay 1 Torah 36]
Is a set rule, that a person will not understand the words of a Tzadik unless he has first completely rectified his Bris. Only then will he begin to understand the words of the Tzadik.
[Likutay 1 Torah 36]
One who has completely rectified his Bris has control over his mind.
[Likutay 1 Torah 36]
Someone who was Pogem Hbris cannot pray with full concentration.
[Likutay 1 Torah 50]
One does not receive enjoyment from his prayer until he has rectified the Bris.
[Likutay 1 Torah 50]
Someone who was Pogem Hbris should be very careful to protect himself from dogs and sword (weapons).
[Likutay 1 Torah 50]...
...
Delete-->You do understand that Aggadata is not to be taken literally, right? In any event, all the sources that you cite that are from Chazal are clearly meant to convey the thoughts I have expressed.
That masturbaters are chayev misa?
About aggadita you're wrong
The Ran (Drashos #13) points out that the statemnt of R. Yochana had no halachic relevance at all - it was merely an Agadic interpretation, and the disagreement was regarding a scientific fact, yet the student was punished for not believing in its truth. Therefore, he concludes:
"Just as we are commanded to follow their opinions regarding laws of the Torah, so too are we commanded to follow all of what they say from tradition in Hashkafa ("Deos"), and medrash on Pesukim. And someone who veers from their words, even in something that has no relevance to any Mitzvah, is an Apikores and has no share in the next world.
The Radvaz (4:232) writes that "Aggadah is part of the Torah shebal peh and is rooted in what Moshe received on Har Sinai directly from Hashem, just like the rest of Torah shebal peh".
Similarly from the Alshich: "Nobody has a right in our generation to disagree based on his own opinion, if he did not find such an opinion from his predecessors (Rebbeim). We are commanded "lo sosur", which includes also Agadita." (Shmuel II 21:1)
The Rama in Toras HaOlah quotes the Rambam who says that in the days of Neviim and Chazal, the science of astronomy was “incomplete”. The Rama strongly argues, stating clearly that we assume rabbinic science to be infallible, and ancient rabbinic knowledge of astronomy complete.
The Maharal (B’er Hagola 6) writes that when the sages mentioned a scientific fact, they derived it from their knowledge of the Torah and Hashem, Who is the Cause of all science. He says that science is inferior to Torah even where it comes to scientific knowledge, because scientists base their opinions on what they see, which is a finite and imperfect method of investigation, as opposed to knowledge of science through Torah, which is the root and cause for all facts in the world.
The fact that science in Chazal was gathered from “higher sources” was used by Rav Yehuda Breil ZT'L, Rebbi of the author of encyclopedia Pachad Yitzchok, to refute his student’s suggestion that we reconsider Chazal’s leniency of killing lice on Shabbos because lice are spontaneously generated. The Pachad Yitzchok suggested to his Rebbi that now that science has refuted the possibility of spontaneous generation, we should not be lenient in allowing the killing of lice on Shabbos.
But Rav Breil did not accept the suggestion. Stating an idea similar to that of the Maharal, that Chazal’s knowledge is based on the reality, not mere scientific observation, it is certain that the rabbinic science is more accurate than the science of the scientists, and even if currently it appears one way, the rabbinic view will eventually be proven correct. He mentions that in the disagreement between the sages and the scientists regarding whether the sun revolves around the earth or vice versa, the sages conceded to the scientists, but centuries later, it was proven that the Torah sages were right all along (note: See Shitah Mekubetzes that the sages never conceded that the gentiles were right; they merely “lost the argument”. They knew from tradition that they were right; they just could not defend the correct position).
This is overwhelming evidence that aggados should be taken literally.
Those last irrelevant sources were a copying error. Sorry
DeleteYou could have just gone to Wikipedia... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aggadah#Literal-allegorical_teachings
DeleteAlternatively, check the Rishonim and Acharonim on the Aggadata of Rabba bar Chana. Not the Rashba, not the Ritva, not the Maharal and not the Maharsha took them literally. Neither do the Gra, Rav Dessler, etc. etc. etc.
Reuven Meir-
ReplyDelete"If this is true, then it is a simple case of avara lishmah"
My point is that I don't see how masturbation can be the ultimate act of being self centered, yosef's Hzl was obviously not self centered.
And I ask, are a lot of people today not facing similar challenges to yosef?
I am NOT saying that we have a heter today all I am saying is that it has absolutely nothing to do with the midda of being self centered, and therefore those that struggle with hzl do not have to have the extra burden of worrying about doing ultimate self centered acts.
Danny - It does not mean that one who masterbates is therefore a self-centered person. It means that masturbation is a self-centered act which can cause one to become more and more self-centered, or conversly one who IS self-centered would perhaps be more prone to it.
ReplyDeleteAn analogy would be sinning by killing animals for no reason. It does not neessesarly mean that the person is cruel, but it is a cruel thing to do, and therefore when done frequently can cause one to become more cruel.
Reuven meir-
ReplyDeleteThanks for you comment I think we are getting to the heart of the matter and our difference of opinion.
As I wrote above I consulted with a non Jewish therapist and a frum one and they both told me that masturbating once or twice a week will not have any negative effect on my mental health, or middos (obviously like a lot of other things if it becomes obsessive it will cause problems)
You believe that masturbation can cause one to become more self centered, I don't.
Would you still have this belief if you were not religious?
I find it too much of a coincidence
that generally speaking the only people who think masturbation can have negative effects are very religious. It is similar to the fact that the only people who believe in a young universe are religious.
In any case I feel very strongly that someone who does believe that masturbation will have negative effects, that indeed will happen, kind of like the placebo effect.
Dr Sorotzkin quotes Rav Dessler saying that wasting seed is a serious transgression, how much more so is the sin of wasting time. So I'm not sure if masturbation is worse then gluttony.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.drsorotzkin.com/audio/BoundariesRestrictionsSexuality.mp3
The parallel is strange, to say the least. I cannot understand it, and certainly cannot accept it.
"but this issue as it pertains to women is different than as it pertains to men"
ReplyDeleteBut why? Psychologically its the same (you may disagree but that would not be a religious argument)
The feminine receives pleasure (and uses that passivity as a vehicle for giving). The masculine gives pleasure actively. I don't want to get into the topic to any greater extent at this juncture.
Rabbi, is this a decent analysis?
ReplyDeleteyes.
A couple of good Christian sites:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.growthtrac.com/artman/publish/masturbation-ruins-great-sex-801.php
http://www.christianity.com/Home/Christian%20Living/Features/11555712/
As to the psychology of it, don't be so sure. It is not PC to be negative on it, but the information is out there.
ReplyDeleteSee
http://www.healthboards.com/boards/showthread.php?t=497247
http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Post-Ejaculatory-Guilt-Syndrome
YGB-
ReplyDeleteFirstly pegs happens after sexual intercourse as well so its not unique to masturbation
Secondly pegs has no negative psychological effects, a part from feeling down for a few minutes.
Often these feelings are escalated because of religious guilt, and the religious guilt can cause serious long term problems. A sexologist told me that a lot of her patients are from religious backgrounds (including jewish) and they have a lot of problems after marriage because of this.
I challenge you to find any secular professional article that says that
A mentally stable person that masturbates (not compulsively) will have negative mental effects.
Finally the fact that people may get pegs after sexual intercourse or masturbation does not mean that it is negative any less than the fact that some girls feel guilty after eating makes eating negative.
ReplyDeleteBtw the nationmaster website that you quote also says this http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Masturbation#Health_and_psychological_effects
Anyway I think we have both stated our views and I don't think any of us are going to change our minds, so let's agree to disagree.
ReplyDeleteI hope you are able to understand that my arguments are not "based on self-validated premises", they are my honest opinions.
Thanks for saying "You certainly are entitled to disagree with me and still be considered an Orthodox Jew."
It means a lot to me as I really worry about this.
All the best.
Something to think about http://www.inewsone.com/2011/05/20/atheists-sex-lives-better-than-believers/51823
ReplyDeleteDanny if there were more religious people like you, there would be less sexual problems in the religious word.
Thank you for being brave enough to speak out
I will be doing a second post on the topic.
ReplyDeletehttps://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/inside-porn-addiction/201605/is-pornography-helping-or-hurting-in-the-bedroom - This topic is more nuanced than ridiculous books like Battle of Our Generation portray it. (One thing it notes is that anxiety is correlated with porn use which means that screaming from the rooftops on how masturbation is murder is in fact counter-productive to your stated goal.)
ReplyDeleteRepost from a comment on RHM's latest post by Der Bochur
ReplyDeleteThis whole thing about "wasting seed" is nonsense. it is based on incorrect ideas about how sperm is generated and how pregnancy works. In short the belief in the ancient world was that upon pregnancy the form ('seed') was inserted into the woman and if not inserted into the woman the form has nowhere to go meaning a human life was just wasted. We now know that's not how it works and hence the issur was based on false premises and in light of advances in knowledge Halacha should change. (Now people have been clinging to Kabbalistic nonsense to justify this but the Zohar is obviously pseudographic and the authenticity of Kaballah questionable as demonstrated by Rav Yehuda Aryeh Mimodena.)
There is no such link made in Chazal, and, as I have noted above, it is counterintuitive. There is no evidence that Chazal based their opprobrium of HZL on the science of the day. "Der Bochur" is arrogant on several counts. including his blithe dismissal of the Zohar's authenticity.
DeleteDer Bochur here,
DeleteSeveral Aggadic statements were cited earlier on this thread demonstrating a link.("k'ilu horeg et hanefesh" seems pretty clear and makes perfect sense in light of ancient beliefs about pregnancy. )
The Zohar's authenticity is highly debateable
From Dovbear
[Rav] Yitzchak Me'Acco, a kabbalist and student of the Ramban, met de Leon's widow, reviewed the manuscript, and determined that the Zohar was, in fact, written by de Leon. (See Sefer HaYuchasin by Rabbi Avraham Zacuto 1425- c. 1515 CE in which Mrs. de Leon admits the fraud.)
Also from DovBear
DeleteRabbi Yitzchak's conclusion was supported by later scholars, including Elijah Delmedigo, Yakov Emdem, and Gershom Scholem, the 20th century Hebraist. They observed that the Zohar:
1 - contains names of rabbis who were born after Bar Yochai had already died;
2 - misquotes passages of Scripture and misunderstands the Talmud;
3 - contains ritual observances which were ordained by rabbinical authorities who were born after Bar Yochai had already died;
4 - mentions the crusades against the Muslims (who, inconveniently, did not exist in the second century);
5 - uses the expression "esnoga", which is a Portuguese corruption of "synagogue;"
6 - gives a mystical explanation of the Hebrew vowel-points, which were not introduced until long after the Talmudic period.
7 - contains suspicious marks of Spanish and Spanish sentence patterns
8 - is riddled with Aramaic errors; at times, Scholem found, the Aramaic is actually Hebrew with a few extra alephs scattered here and there. [Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zohar]
This is extremely powerful and incontrovertible evidence.
1. Again, that is your speculation. Malbin pnei chaveiro bo'rabbim is also described as tantamount to killing the person. Is that scientific as well?
Delete2. See R' Aryeh Kaplan in Meditation and Kabbalah where he proves that R' Yitzchok d'min Akko did accept the authenticity of the Zohar. BTW, so did the Gra and Reb Tzadok. Good enough for me...
3. [Yawn] These are all hoary assertions trotted out time and time again... The Zohar is clearly not in its entirety from RSBY. It has many other Tana'im and Amora'im mentioned. And, as was the case with all manuscripts, it was subject to interpolations and mistakes. R' Yaakov Emden himself holds the Zohar is authentic, but that it includes interpolations.
Delete1.There's no suggestion to apply nidui there. If we understand it in light of ancient beliefs of masturbation being murder-lite it makes 100% sense.
Delete2.So what differences does it make that they accepted it?
3.I can claim that for any document with anarchronisms if I wish. For example if I'm claiming an ancient Mesorah from Rashbi on Shakespeare's Julius Caesar I'd claim that the lines "Brutus: 'Peace! Count the clock.'
Cassius: 'The clock has stricken three.'" is in fact a corruption of an original text. The question is if there's ANY evidence whatsoever to support this theory that doesn't depend on the presupposition that at least part of the Zohar is authentic. (For example:A literary analysis of styles contained in the Zohar that shows disparity would qualify as evidence in favor of this multiple redaction theory.)
1. I have no idea what you mean.
Delete2. It makes a difference to me...
3. Really?
1.Anonymous cited sources that state that Er and Onan died for "wasting seed" and that masturbaters are excommunicated.
Delete3.Really what? If you have this theory you need to have something to show for it.
1. If they were murderers they should have been put to death...
Delete3. Are you an expert in Zohar? I am not. But I know Yerushalmi, somewhat, and it suffers from the same issues.
1. Ask this guy:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cpbVLY5RPw
Delete3. Give an example of anarchronisms in Yerushalmi which there's evidence to suggest were not in the original if you may please.
1. I don't deal with such people and their statements. Beneath my dignity.
Delete2. I am not that big a baki that I can find one offhand, but both the Mashbiach and the Shaarei Toras Eretz Yisroel, the former in his Introduction and the latter in his glosses on the Mashbiach affirm the later interpolations.
1. Is Rabbi Mizrachi not big enough of a guy for you?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KhjIFX9mMKg
Delete2.Holding that position of later interpolations,corruptions or theological edits for Sifrei Kodesh is rather dangerous if the Yerushalmi why not Yoshiyahu (Second Isaiah and like) or even the Torah. (as pointed out at https://judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/36988/why-does-the-authorship-of-the-zohar-matter)
Just some examples of potential problems (I will cite which manuscripts I refer to and these are only ones with manuscript evidence to support these readings)
-The Septugaint doesn't have 1/8th of Sefer Yirmiyahu and the material is arranged differently
-The quotes from Tanakh cited in the New Testament are correct in the Septugaint. For example: The New Testament against our Masoretic text says that 75 came down to Egypt. The Septugaint, 4Q1 and 4Q13 all have the same reading.
-Both the Septugaint and Samaritan Torah have Kayin say to Hevel "Nelchu Hasadeh" while the Masoretic just says "Vayomer Kayin el Hevel Achiv" with no dialogue which is gramatically wrong.
- Bereshis 37:36 says in the Masoretic (I had to remove punctuation so it'd copy correctly) והמדנים מכרו אתו אל מצרים לפוטיפר סריס פּרעה שר הטבחים while Onkelos has וּמִדְיַנָאֵי זַבִּינוּ יָתֵיהּ לְמִצְרָיִם לְפוֹטִיפַר רַבָּא דְּפַרְעֹה רַב קָטוֹלַיָּא׃ Note :Midyanim instead of Midanim.
-Devarim 32:8 and 32:43 have been called into question by the Septugaint,4Q37 and 4Q44. These differences are theologically major, these Henotheistic versions have a supreme god called Elyon dividing up the nations each with their own god according to their boundaries and Hashem would be the Judean God who over time gains prominence among the gods (a very different picture than our Shirat Ha'azinu)
-For Devarim 33:2 the LXX (Septugaint) has angels instead of "eshdat" a possible origin is that the copy of the Septugaint translators said אשרת and they translated from the root שרת (Ignoring possible connection to asherah worship alongside Hashem in Yehuda see:Kuntillet Ajrud and Khirbet El Qom inscriptions for example.)
This seems like a really dangerous path to take Rabbi Bechofer.
Some more just to prove my point.
Delete-In Shmuel Aleph 10:27 4Q51 has a dropped paragraph in our Masoretic readings which gives background information on why Nachash is attack Yavesh Gilad (The transcription won't copy. I'll send you a link if you want.)
-The Septugaint is missing whole perakim of Shmuel
-A few times the Gemara paraphrases verses in Ben Sira which was considered canonical at one time. (I'll find the citations if you want)
-The Nun was found in Ashrei in the Septugaint and 11Q5.
Just to explain the above quote
Deletea possible origin is that the copy of the Septugaint translators said אשרת and they translated from the root שרת
It'd be that the root שרת means to serve so the translators had in mind those who serve Hashem i.e the melachim presumably.
One more
DeleteYou also have a recently published fragment written in Ktav Ashuris!( never adopted by the Samaritans) which along with the Vetus Latina agrees with the Samaritan theological position that Devarim 27:4 should say Har Gerizim and not Har Eval.(https://foundationjudaismchristianorigins.org/ftp/dead-sea-scrolls/unpub/DSS-deuteronomy.pdf)
So again this seems like very dangerous territory and the line highly artificial. If you can justify the non-application to Tanakh I'm all ears.
Delete1. Surely you jest...!
Delete2. I'm all for living dangerously. There is no reason to assume the same degree of accuracy in Nach as in Chumash. Even in Chumash, some Rishonim held there are interpolations - as I am sure you know ;-) - the Mesorah need not be microscopically precise. Kind of like minuscule bugs in lettuce. :-)
So should we correct our Torahs where they're clearly wrong like with Kayin and hevel or the midanim/midyanim for example?
DeleteJust for the hell of it I decided to google if anyone agreed with me on the masturbation thing. I found this from wikipedia
DeleteAccording to James Nelson, there are three interpretive examinations why Onan's act is condemned: the Onan story reflects firm "procreative" accent of the Hebrew interpretation regarding sexuality, a constant of the "prescientific mind" to consider that the child is contained in the sperm the same way a plant is contained in its seed, and masturbation as well homosexual acts by men have been condemned more strongly than same acts by women in the Judeo-Christian tradition.[11]
Also see for more details.
Deletehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semen#Society_and_culture
Thanks for the Sichos you posted I'll enjoy listening to them in the coming weeks.
ReplyDelete1. "Clearly wrong" - really???
ReplyDelete2. And James Nelson's views are significant because...???
1. It is by far most likely that it is the Masoretic text which is mistaken there. Just pretend for a moment this was a test and one handed in one version and the other the MT one. Which would you mark as correct?
Delete2. I could ask the same with your appeal to authority regarding the pseudograpgic זוהר.
For the one in Vayeshev on Midanim/Midyanim Midanim aren't mentioned anywhere in the Parsha and a typo that made midyanim midanim is completely plausible. (The JPS translation,Targum Yonasan and Septugaint also agree that it should be midyanim)
Delete2. I'm pretty sure that Vayomer followed by no text is gramatically invalid.
That's by basis for saying here that it's clear that it's our masoretic text at fault for these 2.
You know there are many reasons given why the conversation is not recorded, more compelling than the words you cite, which are not Biblical in content.
DeleteWhat exactly are they?
DeleteAlso what about מדנים and מדינים?
Rabbi Bechofer,
ReplyDeleteI challenge you to find another sin besides murder for which the following lashon is employed or equivalent
Wasting seed is more severe then manslaughter, for here he is spilling his own blood and the blood of his children. In the Zohar parshas vyache it says all evil people can repent except those that commit this sin. In addition a person under the age of mitzvot is not held accountable for his sins except this one, for Er and Onun were underage and got punished. In addition the generation of the flood who were wiped off the face of the earth was only for this sin.
(Sharai Kedusha)
More severe then all sins is one who spills seed, for he spills the blood of his kids for all eternity. In addition all sins can be rectified, but this one has no rectification. (Sharai Kedusha 2/8)
BTW it's not just me who thinks it's related to baal tashchis and less o your meaningfullness sexually related
ReplyDeletehttp://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol01/v01n022.shtml#03
So nireh li it IS in fact based on the false premise that sperm ('seed') is limited and CAN be wasted and isn't replenished (which makes wasting it basically impossible by definition)
DeleteNo one meant it literally. Gimme a break.
DeleteShow me where anyone made a disclaimer or ANYONE who says that it doesn't mean what it says.
DeleteHi I posted on this at https://freudiancommenter.wordpress.com/2018/11/25/science-and-aveiros/
ReplyDeletePlease comment there. I plan to touch on Frum social and theological stuff in full anonymity of course.
Well I lost my password so comment here.
Delete