I don't get it. Does this fellow think this is the way to bring the Geulah??!!
We really seem to have learned nothing from this long and bitter Galus.
I said [to Rav Shmuel Eliyahu's father] we will be in a sad state if we were to have a rav who is next to Drukman and all the people of Amalek. These are Jews?
Translation of the remarks:
The passuk says, כי יד על כס יה מלחמה לה' בעמלק, the wise ones said the seat of God is not complete as long as Amalek is around. What does it mean "as long as", and "His seat is not complete"? כס, that is kippa sruga. Do you hear? As long as there is kippa sruga, God's seat is not complete, that is Amalek. When will the seat be complete? Where there will be no more kippa sruga.
I said [to Rav Shmuel Eliyahu's father] we will be in a sad state if we were to have a rav who is next to Drukman and all the people of Amalek. These are Jews?
(courtesy of http://lifeinisrael.blogspot.com/2013/07/quote-of-day_14.html)
Something I learned from Rabbi Amsalem's comment on this episode (see the comments for the link):
This is ROY's SIL http://www.fxp.co.il/showthread.php?t=9293527:
Something I learned from Rabbi Amsalem's comment on this episode (see the comments for the link):
This is ROY's SIL http://www.fxp.co.il/showthread.php?t=9293527:
הרב יעקב צ'יקוטאי הינו רב העיר מודיעין-מכבים-רעות ונשוי לביתו של הרב עובדיה יוסף, רבקה יוסף. הרב יעקב ואשתו, רבקה צ'יקוטאי, מוכרים בעיר מודיעין-מכבים-רעות בתור אנשי חסד ואנשי תורה שדואגים לציבור העיר, לדוגמה: אשתו של הרב יעקב, רבקה, מעורבת רבות בעשייה העירונית והציבורית בעיקר בנוגע למקוואות והרב יעקב דואג להגיע מדי שנה לפני ראש השנה עם שאר רבני העיר, לישיבה בה מלמד בנו, הרב ליאור, ושם עושים בהנהגתו ובהנהגת שאר רבני העיר, את טקס התרת הנדרים. הרב יעקב מזוהה מאז ומתמיד בלאומיותו, בניו ובנותיו בישיבות ואולפנות, וכמובן, רב צבאי ידוע ומוכר.
We remain in golus, the Temple remains unbuilt and the real culprits say "It's not MY fault. Why, I even had my new suit doubled-checked for shaatnes last week!"
ReplyDeleteSee also:
ReplyDeletehttp://bit.ly/12xW107
נפתלי בנט על דברי הרב שלום כהן: תתביישו לכם
and:
ReplyDeletehttp://bit.ly/12NzBnW
הרב זלמן מלמד: תודה למחרפין
I doubt, though, that doing someone else's cheshbon hanefesh for them, when we're not in a position to influence them anyway, helps bring the ge'ulah either. All it does is fuel disdain and pirud.
ReplyDeletePerhaps "mutav sheyihyu shogegin" (better they continue acting out of ignorance) is not only for their welfare, but pardons us of lecturing them for our own welfare as well. If we can't change someone, then yelling "You are wrong! Your are wrong!" harms us too.
I could not agree more. While Rav Bechofer is correct that we need to disassociate ourselves from those whose improper views we might be suspected of sharing, and such disassociation might go a long way towards not having the larger charedi community tarred with the same brush blackened by certain elements among us, it is important for us to remember, too, that when playing in the mud one becomes dirtied, and it is our imperative to hold ourselves - even internally - as a goy kadosh, above the petty slings and arrows which have come to characterize such a major portion of the interaction between factions, whether political or religious.
DeletePerhaps. But those of us who, for whatever reason, do not don kippot serugot must make clear our disassociation from such vile comments.
ReplyDeleteInteresting critique of Bennet's rejoinder:
ReplyDeletehttp://mostlykosher.blogspot.com/2013/07/army-service-is-not-religious-zionisms.html
Shrill actions and reactions:
ReplyDeletehttp://bit.ly/1aECD75
תגידו תודה: ערב תשעה באב החרדים מסבירים לנו מהי שנאת חינם
I like this response:
ReplyDeletehttp://bit.ly/18eKLGT
הרב חגי לונדין: לא להתרגש מההתבטאות הקיצונית
I concur with A. Wagner. I assume that Reb Micha does as well.
ReplyDeleteI found this out the hard way. If you protest against machlokes, you yourself get labeled as a baal machlokes.
ReplyDeleteDamage control:
ReplyDeletehttp://bit.ly/13IYZlh
הרב שלום כהן: דבריי כוונו לעבר מנהיגי הבית היהודי
Spin:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.inn.co.il/News/News.aspx/259145
But I found this interesting information I did not know:
הם שוכחים ששמונים אחוזים מהבוחרים שלהם הם כיפות סרוגות. הגיע הזמן שידעו זאת", אומר הרב אמסלם ומוסיף ושואל: "הרב כדיר צבאן זצ"ל, רבה של נתיבות שחינך את ילדיו ונכדיו במוסדות החינוך של הכיפות הסרוגות הוא עמלק? והרב עובדיה יוסף עצמו שחתנו, הרב צ'יקוטאי, ובניו, נכדי הרב עובדיה, חובשי כיפות סרוגות, גם הם עמלק? אני שואל את השאלות הללו כי כולם שותקים כמו דגים. כולם רואים את העוול והדברים הבלתי הגיוניים שקורים כאן ושותקים
Note that the qualification given that his remarks were directed at the leaders of Bayit Yehudi does not fit with what he says that he said the same idea to Rav Shmuel Eliyahu's father. He passed away before anybody heard of Habayit Hayehudi and Bennett. And also before the Chareidi draft proposal, as well, if I'm not mistaken. Somebody please verify.
ReplyDeleteGiven that he is claiming that he said it "with great pain" and that he only meant Bayit Yehudi, below is a link to the video, where one can judge for themselves what he was saying and judge for themselves the extent to which those in the room (including Rav Ovadia) reacted with great pain.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.kikarhashabat.co.il/video.php?vid=120779-141409
Sorry A. Wagner and Micha, I couldn't disagree more. The reality is that most of the petty slings and arrows emanate from the chareidi sector, including those at the highest echelons of chareidi leadership (R. Cohen is rosh yeshiva of Porat Yosef, not a fringe figure).The silence of the chareidi community is taken by non-chareidim to indicate not just acquiescence to but support of the extremist agenda and rhetoric).
ReplyDeleteI think you missed my, and what I understood to be Reb Micha's, point. Regardless of where the petty slings and arrows originate (and there's plenty from everywhere, I'm sorry to say), by responding in kind we do not acquit ourselves well. Our feelings of justification as „turnabout is fair play" notwithstanding, we only beget more rancor and vitriol unless we take the higher ground.
DeleteI think I got your point, and if not I believe I got Micha's point. I am not advocating mutually destructive vitriol, but what I advocate (and in a different era would have expected)is that at the very least the vitriol should be speedily and unconditionally condemned as something in violation of Torah and civil norms. Silence in the face of the ever growing rancor only enables the extremists and does not constitute the higher ground of which you write. We have seen R. Stav getting physically accosted at a wedding and Chareidi soldiers beibg assaulted. I shudder to think of what it will take for someone of influence in the Chareidi world to finally speak out.
ReplyDeleteMicha Berger and others,
ReplyDeleteHow is not being mocheh against the language coming from the chareidi "gedolim" any different than the chachomim who were not moche in the aggadita of Kamtza & Bar Kamtza?
I was really just thinking of the number of blogs focused on how the other kind of Jew is doing everything wrong, and how we really don't need the whole genre.
ReplyDeleteThe value of distancing oneself from a negative statement is really of little value if it doesn't appear on a movement's organ or the soapbox of a spokesperson. But I wasn't thinking about it, I was just thinking how much negativity is about, how the 9 days isn't the right time for it altogether, and those kinds of thoughts.
I'm tired of people constantly saying "we need to learn ahavas chinam," "we need to change." What's that definition of irrationality? If the Holocaust, and the creation of the Medinah, and the six day war haven't engendered some harmony, then it is not going to happen ever. Let's be rational and accept the reality that a large percentage of Jews will always believe and say that their fellow Jews are evil and unfit to be called Jews and that their very lives are an affront to God. This is never going to change. If you think that it is by changing this you will bring Mashiach, you're just being childish. I think the best solution is to take up arms and kill people that disturb the peace and tranquility of Klal Yisrael. Only by doing that will we bring Mashiach.
ReplyDeleteLeaving aside my modest proposal in the previous comment, I wonder if anyone else sees the fantastic humor in his remark. There are Beheimos in Yerushalayim that attack chareidi soldiers, and the Eida abets this behavior through silence, and THE AMALEIKIM ARE THE ONES THAT WEAR A KIPPA SERUGA! Now I know why there are so many symbol keys on the keyboard. @%%#@@!!!!**#!!###
ReplyDeleteShlomo Tannenbaum, the man who runs the Ark here in Chicago, mentioned to me that he has seen this many times: Religion can mask mental illness. A guy washes his hands constantly, it's because he's chosheish maybe he touched his hair. A man cuts out Magen Davids from boxes at Hungarian because he saw a tshuva from Reb Moshe that the Magen David has no kedusha. This might be a whole new syndrome!
But, of course, the extremist rhetoric is all from the charedi side...
ReplyDeleteI suppose our radars for such things are attuned differently, Micha. As one wears a kipa sruga and identifies with the RZ sector I am not a disinterested party to R. Cohen's slander, whereas you seem more motivated by the responses and potential responses to R. Cohen. It is indeed sad that even the 9 days are not sacred to the most vituperative sector of our people.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.jpost.com/Jewish-World/Jewish-News/American-Orthodox-community-condemns-Shas-rabbis-comments-against-national-religious-320059
ReplyDeleteAmerican Orthodox community condemns Shas rabbi’s comments against national-religious
By SAM SOKOL
16/07/2013
The Orthodox Union and Rabbinical Council of America issue a joint statement on Monday condemning Shas member Rabbi Shalom Cohen’s use of the term “Amalek.”
The Orthodox Union and Rabbinical Council of America issued a joint statement on Monday condemning Shas member Rabbi Shalom Cohen’s use of the term “Amalek” to characterize the leaders of the national-religious community.
The two organizations, which represent the centrist stream of American Orthodoxy, released the statement just prior to Tisha Be’av, pleading for Jews worldwide to “reclaim the glory of our people by refraining from language that divides us and promoting language and deeds that unite us.”
Tisha Be’av – the ninth day of the Hebrew month of Av – is a rabbinically mandated day of mourning for the destruction of the two Temples in Jerusalem.
According to tradition, the Second Temple was destroyed because of internecine hate among Jews.
The OU and RCA decried the “frightening exacerbation of internal discord” and “ominous intensification of inflammatory rhetoric” in Israel, as well as the “vile insults, offensive name-calling – including the inciteful invocation of the name ‘Amalek’ – and vicious personal attacks emanating from all sides on the various troublesome issues that we now confront.”
Cohen’s comments comparing the national-religious community to Israel’s biblical archenemy came at an event on Saturday evening announcing the candidacy of Rabbi Yitzhak Yosef – Shas spiritual adviser Rabbi Ovadia Yosef’s youngest son – for Sephardic chief rabbi.
Cohen referred to the Modern Orthodox community as “kippa sruga,” or knitted kippa.
“As long as there are knitted kippot, the throne [of God] is not whole. That’s Amalek,” Israeli media quoted him as saying in a video posted Sunday on the haredi website Kikar Hashabbat. “Are these people even Jews?” he asked.
“We would be unfortunate to end up with a [chief] rabbi who wears a knitted kippa.”
According to Jewish law, one is obligated to kill all members of the Amalekite nation.
The organizations also alluded to the current campaign by haredi extremists to vilify ultra-Orthodox IDF servicemen, known disparagingly as “hardakim.”
“We have even witnessed physical violence,” the statement read in an apparent reference to haredi attacks on soldiers in their communities. “Indeed, in recent months we have seen precincts of Jerusalem’s Old City, in the shadow of the destroyed Temple for which we mourn today, become a venue for provocation and insult, rather than a place of unity for the global Jewish community.”
JTA contributed to this report.
Shocking, and so sad.
ReplyDeleteא) בקשר לעמלקיות של הסרוגים:
ReplyDeleteעל התווית של דיסק "בר קמצא. 2007" ישנו בין השאר טקסט כזה:
"ויבוא עמלק וילחם עם ישראל, מלחמה ליהוה בעמלק מדור דור"
ב) באותו דיסק גם ישנם פירושים וחידושים על האגדת החורבן ועל המסרים של חכמינו שבה. מצאתי את הדיסק הזה דרך הלינק הבא:
https://www.facebook.com/Bar.Kamtza.2007
ג) אחד מהחידושים שמצאתי בדיסק: "בריון" = בר-יוון (תהלים מ-ג: טִּיט הַיָּוֵן) = בן-חושך. יש שם המון חידושים, מומלץ ביותר!
הלינק לדיסק עצמו:
https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B4H3BoHH70ZXby1hYTl0MFVla2M&usp=sharing