Thursday, July 18, 2013

Mashiach Did Not Arrive -- Again :: Jewish Media Resources

As we say on Avodah, ZZG - Zehr Zehr Gut Gezogt!

Mashiach Did Not Arrive -- Again :: Jewish Media Resources

(see also http://haemtza.blogspot.com/2013/07/jonathan-at-his-best.html)

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14 comments:

  1. My Yiddish is bad. Are you saying you agree with him or not?

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  2. Yes, sinas chinam is bad.


    Is there something else that ma'aminim can do, to hasten moshiach?

    How many shomrei mitzvos say that they want the geulah?

    How many of them mean it?

    "Sound the great shofar for our freedom; raise a banner to gather our exiles, and bring us together from the four corners of the earth into our land."

    I felt like total fraud saying those words in chutz l'aretz.

    How can I ask Hashem to bring "us", if I refuse to use my bechirat chofshi and bring "me"?


    When our brethren decide that moshiach and geulah are more important to them than job security, two car garages, and comfort level - then we will all dwell within our G-d given borders, and we will be worthy of moshiach.


    Until then, every year we will hear the same "be nice to each other" pep talk, and everyone will start preparing in Tammuz for yet another kamtza / bar kamtza shiur.

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  3. One has to determine where one can best accomplish his mission in this world. This sometimes is in Chutz la'Aretz.

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  4. I was enjoy the article until I got to the words "The Torah community".
    RYR's definition as evidenced by his usage in the article clearly excludes non-Chareidi from "the Torah community". Does this mean I can go to McDonald's now?

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  5. I agree with his article for the most part, but find it blasphemous to say at any time - even the times we are in - "I don't believe Mashiah will come today" or "...by Tish'a Be'av".

    This seems to fly in the face of the Rambam, Hilchot Melachim 11:2.

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  6. When you wait for a train, and you know it won't be there for 10 minutes, are you still not waiting for the train?

    The Rambam says "mechakeh levi'aso", not to expect him any moment, but to wait for him perpetually. The gemara goes further, and says that HQBH asks after death if "tzipisa liyshua -- anxiously await the redemption." Which is also not insisting it's immanent.

    In the 12th iqar in the list in Peirush haMishnayos, the Rambam quotes Chavaqua 2:3, "im yismahmah, chaqei lo -- even if he tarries, wait for him", and the author of the Ani Maamin thought the idea was important enough to leave in. We are explicitly told to wait while he tarries, not to expect because he won't!

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  7. Garnel: Try to see the glass as half full, not half empty. :-)

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  8. When you wait for a train, and you know it won't be there for 10 minutes, are you still not waiting for the train?

    Ah, but if you don't know for sure when it will come, shouldn't you be ready for the train at any moment?

    The Rambam says "mechakeh levi'aso", not to expect him any moment, but to wait for him perpetually.

    What you're saying is not at all the correct Pshat. For example, see aharit.com where he elaborates:

    בכלל יסוד האמונה בביאת המשיח ישנו חיוב לחכות ולצפות לביאתו - ללא שום הגבלת זמן, מקום ותנאי, אלא, "אחכה לו בכל יום שיבוא". אבל המאמין בביאת המשיח, אך אומר הוא עוד חזון למועד בואו, כבר נתקלקל אצלו יסוד האמונה בביאת המשיח, כי על כן הצפיה לביאת המשיח הינה חלק בלתי נפרד מהאמונה בבואו 3 .

    And in footnote 3:

    כך כתב הרמב"ם בפרק י"א מהלכות מלכים הלכה א': "המלך המשיח... וכל מי שאינו מאמין בזה, או מי שאינו מחכה לביאתו, לא בשאר הנביאים בלבד הוא כופר, אלא בתורה ובמשה רבינו" הנה, כי מי שאינו מחכה לביאתו, אף שמאמין בו, נקרא כופר, כי על כן יסוד האמונה בביאת המשיח הוא להאמין בבואו ולצפות לביאתו. כמו כן כתב הרמב"ם בהקדמת פירוש המשניות לסנהדרין פרק חלק: "היסוד השנים עשר ימות המשיח, והוא להאמין ולאמת שיבוא, ולא יחשוב שיתאחר, ואם יתמהמה חכה לו, ולא ישים לו זמן, ולא יעשה לו סברות במקראות להוציא זמן ביאתו", על פי יסוד זה היה מרן רי"ז הלוי מבריסק מבאר את הנוסח שאנו אומדים בכל יום בי"ג עיקרים "אני מאמין באמונה שלימה בביאת המשיח ואע"פ שיתמהמה עם כל זה אחכה לו בכל יום שיבוא" - דבר שלא הוזכר בשום עיקר אחד כמו: "אני מאמין באמונה שלימה שהבורא יתברך שמו בורא ומנהיג לכל הברואים והוא לבדו עשה ויעשה לכל המעשים", מדוע אין כאן שאלה ותשובה - "ואע"פ שיש עובדים לאלילים, כוכבים ומזלות, עם כל זה אני מאמין", אלא, שכאן אנו אומרים במילואו את כל מה שצריך להאמין ביסוד ועיקר זה של משיח: שלא די רק להאמין בביאת המשיח, אלא שגם צריך לחכות לו בכל יום שיבוא, וזהו שאנו אומרים: ואע"פ שיתמהמה עם כל זה אחכה לו בכל יום שיבוא.

    יתירה מזו, אומר מרן רי"ז הלוי, כי לא די בכך שיחכה לו בכל יום שיבוא, אלא, חובת הצפיה היא כל רגע ורגע במשך היום, כאומרנו, "כי לישועתך קוינו כל היום" - במשך כל היום על שעותיו ורגעיו. ועי' עוד בזה בספר "מאמרי באר חיים מרדכי" במאמר י"ג עיקרים, עיקר י"ב. ספר "דברי תורה" מהדורא ה' סימן כ"א, ובמהדורא ב' סימן צ"ד. הגדה של פסח - מונקאטש אות מ"ג, דף י"ז ע"א. שו"ת מנחת אלעזר ח"ה סימן ל"ו. שומר אמונים מאמר הגאולה פרק ח'. אור יחזקאל חלק ג', אמונה, דף רפ"ח ודף רח"צ. עלי שור ח"ב עמוד ת"ה.

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  9. WADR to R' Chiyoun, what makes his undertsanting of the Rambam is authoritative? The Rambam himself simply doesn't say that expecting to have to wait is a problem. He talks about the one who doesn't believe, and the one who intellectually believes, but doesn't wait as an attitudinal stance.

    R' Chayoun is consistantly taking sources that talk about anxiously awaiting and saying they mean to expect. He gives no sources for that jump, and probably doesn't realize he has to as he's translating "tzipiyah" that way. The only one who actually states his thesis is Torat Ze'ev, a talmid of R' Velvel Brisker, who is only quoted on this one paragraph. Not quite a compelling statement that it's normative.

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  10. It's pretty clear to me that Rav Hiyoun's understanding is the normative understanding of the Rambam and not "a jump" as you say.

    Just to quote a couple examples from the Hafetz Hayim:

    See Tzipita Lishua, chapter 2:

    בודאי עלינו לעמוד הכן ולחכות
    לישועה ובלשון הכתוב הנ״ל חכה לו דהיינו שצריך
    לעמוד מוכן כמו שעומד ומחכה על איש שיבא ומי
    בעת כזאת יודע אולי כבר עומד אחר כתלינו.

    In the beginning of the chapter, he quotes the Rambam. This says to me that saying, "Nah, it won't happen in the next few days because of XYZ" is Kefira.

    See also the Hafetz Hayim in Shem Olam vol. 2, Sha'ar Hahit'hazkut, end of chapter 14 where he says that there is no reason not to expect Mashiah every day, even if we're totally not worthy, and a person should never give up hope from Hashem's mercy...

    ...just to give a couple examples.

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  11. But the same CC who had a suitcase packed ready to go was the same CC who spent much of his life traveling around Europe raising money for maintenance of a building in Radun.

    Yes, we should not give up hope. But we can't pretend it's as realistic a possibility when one shomer Shabbos calls another "Amaleiq" than when we actually work together with the realization that HQBH wants a plurality of derakhim.

    The worldview I was trying to deny was your original statement taken to its logical conclusion: Don't study for a profession, since you'll be sitting under a fig tree with an atarah on your head by the time you finish school.

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  12. The CC is arguing against the other extreme -- yi'ush. Not to give up hope amid progroms, because Hashem could be merciful at any time.

    As in most human questions, the answer is somewhere in the middle.

    BTW, speaking of the Rambam, aharit.com violates his formulation of the prohibition against lachashov es haqeitz.

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  13. But we can't pretend it's as realistic a possibility when one shomer Shabbos calls another "Amaleiq" than when we actually work together with the realization that HQBH wants a plurality of derakhim.

    I disagree. It's as realistic as any time. And that's the Hafetz Hayim's point. It can happen any time for whatever reason Hashem wants. Let's not play G-d and pretend to know when the good time is. Can we can just say Hareini Nazir Beyom Sheben David Ba and drink as much wine as we want right afterwards since Jews were called "Amalek"?

    The worldview I was trying to deny was your original statement taken to its logical conclusion: Don't study for a profession, since you'll be sitting under a fig tree with an atarah on your head by the time you finish school.

    Talk about jumping!!! Nobody has that conclusion, and it's a HUGE stretch to say such a thing.

    BTW, speaking of the Rambam, aharit.com violates his formulation of the prohibition against lachashov es haqeitz

    I didn't see this on that site, but this prohibition is a whole other animal that I'm not in the mood to get into. Maybe another time.

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