Rabbi Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
הרב יוסף גבריאל בקהופר
Listening to this nowI must address your claim that atheism leads to mass murder1. Most Nazis were Christians and it was the catholic party's votes which enabled the passing of the enabling act.2. Stalin and Hitler weren't stam atheists and killing people for being theists while you do have theists killing atheists for stam being atheists.Mao Zedong was also seriously [censored] up.3.Even if true that secularism leads to violence (It doesn't, see the better angels of our nature which you can find online at archive.org for free scanned for proof that violence has decreased as the generations have passed seeming to imply aliyas hadoros)4.This entire discussion both ways is irrelevant to the question of if Religion is true or not.Just some critique 15 minutes in.
5.Saddam Hussein was a Sunni muslim, a devout one in fact.6.Social darwinism is NOT related to evolution. Just because nature works a certain way doesn't give us a heter to act that. This is like claiming that becuase germs feed off of people to procreate (so to speak rape) that we're justified in raping people. That is obvious shtus.7. You really don't seem to understand that society can't function if we allow people to murder each other do you?Moreover if we accept God as the ultimate arbirter of good then whoever designates himself as God's spokesperson can establish whatever he wants including saying that "War is peace, freedom is slavery and ignorance is strength."8. If everyone was individualistic and violated society's rules society wouldn't be able to function ergo people submit themselves to those rules and those values are hence inculcated from youth. (Think "crime doesn't pay" which is false but story for another time)About Michael Newton,This is obvious shtus. I can talk anyone who's a good hypnotic subject into just about anything by hypnosis. There's a reason police don't use this.
I don't see any questions here, just disagreements. Right?
Just because they're קשיאs and not שאלהs it doesnt entitle you to ignore it.
If they're not questions, then to respond to them is to enter into a vicious, but fruitless, cycle. Would take way too much useless time.
I think we could both learn from the exchange, I know it may come as a shock but I like to discuss these issues with someone who won't just parrot whatever I say sometimes.
So what do you say Rabbi Bechofer?
איזהו חכם? - הלומד מכל אדם, שנאמר: 'מכל מלמדי השכלתי'"
Pick an issue with which to begin.
Dawkins's (ridiculous) claim (this was one of his dumber moments) that religion leads to violence and your counterclaim that atheism leads to violence citing Hitler and Stalin.
The conclusion: Violent people are violent. Nothing to do with religion.
Agreed on that one. Though sometimes religion can be a motivating factor, anything else can also come into play so singling out religion as the cause of all evil is grossly wrong and flatly unfair.
Next topic: The claim that evolution destroys all bases for morality (the irrelevancy of this to the truth or falsehood of evolution aside).
I like this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OxiAikEk2vU
There are bases for objective morality which exclude God, think Kant and Rule Utilitarianism (which unlike act utilitarianism limits utilitarianism to where it won't destroy society so you can't kill someone and harvest their organs to save 5 other people who need those organs) so the claim that it's impossible for objective morality to exist without God is just wrong. More importantly, what makes God subject to this morality exactly and must he follow it? If it's God who makes it up then he can redefine it however he wants whenever he wants including doing things like commanding genocide,rape etc.(and can't exist because objective means immutable) and if he's bound by an external morality then why do we need God to tell us what to do, let's just discover that higher morality.Which commands and version and attributes should we choose? If you say Yiddishkeit which denominations and which sub-denomination?Is there any way to test if God is "good" (again if you hold that God makes morality he can define good as whatever he wants making the term meaningless)?"our experience convinces us of moral values"These are mostly inculcated by society. I don't think kids raised in Sodom (to assume the truth about midrashic expositions of behavior of people in Sodom) would think that Chesed is good.
I think you are missing two points:1. Only when you have a system can you proceed to deal with the exceptions to its rules.2. The question of the exceptions only applies if you conceive of God as the Judeo-Christian-Islamic religions do. If you're a pagan or an atheist there are no questions. But there still must be gods to explain the very notions of idealism and transcendence.Now, having stipulated that, the moral argument is not so much that you can't have morals without God. It is that there is no way to objectively define Good without a monotheistic God who states that his aim is goodness.
Idealism - what society has inculcated is the ideal world. The children of sdom's idealism would be a world of anti-chessed.Transcendence - Buddhists would disagree. Anyway, our desire that a spiritual world exists doesn't make it so same for our desire for objective morality."Now, having stipulated that, the moral argument is not so much that you can't have morals without God. It is that there is no way to objectively define Good without a monotheistic God who states that his aim is goodness."Now who says that the aim of this God is goodness or even primarily goodness? Perhaps its whatever else and God's self defined and hence subjective opinion on his goodness is merely a side-point. Also holding that God is good whatever THAT means seems to be in conflict with his creating a soul which hates the world it was put in (a la messilas Yesharim perek 1).
Have you read the Hakdomo to the Shaarei Yosher? Have you read "A Tzaddik in Our Time?" If not, then you don't really know what goodness means as per God and Torah.
First one, been too busy trying to not fail Geometry & Chemistry. send me a link and i'll read it now.On the second, I read some pages of it in the Hebrew version ish tzadik haya a few years ago. I know where I should be able to get it from presuming someone else didn't take it.
If you can send me a link to the first it'd be appreciated.If I remember correctly (minus maybe the Izhbitzer regarding some cases) Judaism follows Divine Command theory.
Thanks will read once I'm done preparing for my Bechina.
Out of curiosity:whatever happened to your son the libertarian heretic?
Pursuing a PhD in Economics at UCSD.
Why exactly did he decide he was a heretic? What did he deny? The whole shebang, mosaic authorship or what?
Also out of curiosity:What's your myers-briggs type? INTP here.
But the P is weakly dominant over the J.
How extroverted? As per MBTI im 90% introverted (no wonder im relatively quiet.)
Offhand I don't remember. But significantly.
In one of your videos you asked well what caused the big bangHere's an article which answers the Q:https://www.scienceabc.com/nature/universe/caused-big-bang.html