Wednesday, July 13, 2005

Daf Halachah - Shabbos 73b: Smelling Growing Fruit

Smelling Growing Fruit
תלמוד בבלי מסכת שבת דף עג/ב
אמר רב פפא האי מאן דשדא פיסא לדיקלא ואתר תמרי חייב שתים אחת משום תולש ואחת משום מפרק רב אשי אמר אין דרך תלישה בכך ואין דרך פריקה בכך.
Rav Pappa said: A person who threw a clump [of dirt] at a date-palm, and dates fell, is liable for two [sin-offerings], one for “plucking” and one for “extracting.” Rav Ashi said: This is not the normal manner of plucking and this is not the normal manner of extracting. [Hence, he is not in violation of these melachos, and does not bring any sin offerings.]
Shulchan Aruch1 rules that one may smell a hadas (myrtle) while it is still attached to the ground, but one may not smell an esrog or an apple or any edible fruit that is still attached to the ground, lest he come to sever [or pluck] it from the ground in order to eat it.
Magen Avraham (cited in Mishnah Berurah)2 asks why we must be afraid lest he come to pluck th fruit from the ground - perhaps he may just bite it out of the ground, which would not be a Torah violation (and hence not necessitate a rabbinic prohibition to smell the fruit). In answer, he quotes Rashi3 who states that biting is an even more severe form of plucking!
Magen Avraham himself, however, suggests that the melachah of plucking is only violated according to Torah law when the fruit is plucked from the tree by hand or by a tool. His proof is from our Gemara, in which we see that even the highly effective means of plucking the dates from the palm by throwing something at them is not considered a violation of Torah law. R’ Akiva Eiger brings further proof that biting a fruit out of the ground cannot be considered true plucking, as the Gemara in Menachos4 regards eating something right out of the ground as aberrant behavior.
Nevertheless, regardless of whether the prohibition of biting a fruit out of the ground is Torah law or a rabbinic decree, it is forbidden to do so, and forbidden to smell fruit that is still connected to the ground lest one come to pluck it from the ground in whatever way. On this basis, Pri Megadim5 suggests a novel ruling: If one enters and orchard on Shabbos he does not make a blessing over the fragrance of the fruit, because it is forbidden to smell the fruit! Eliyahu Rabbah distinguishes between a person close to the orchard, who should not make a blessing and deliberately smell the fruit, lest he come to pluck it; and a person at a distance from the orchard, who is unlikely to come pluck the sweet-smelling fruit, and who may, therefore, pronounce the blessing.
Tosafos Chaim suggests that it is only on Shabbos, and even on Yom Kippur that falls on Shabbos that one may not smell the fruit attached to the ground lest he come to pluck it (even on Yom Kippur, since it is also Shabbos, we are afraid that he may forget it is also Yom Kippur, and come to pluck the fruit). However, on a Yom Kippur that falls on a weekday one is permitted to smell th fruit, for we assume he will remain aware of the prohibition to eat and not come to pluck the fruit.
1.
שו"ע אורח חיים סימן של"ו סעיף י': הדס מחובר מותר להריח בו אבל אתרוג ותפוח וכל דבר הראוי לאכילה אסור להריח בו במחובר שמא יקוץ אותו לאכלו:
2.
משנה ברורה סימן של"ו ס"ק מ"ט: יקוץ אותו לאכלו - וכ"ת הא נמי יכול לנשכו בפיו מן המחובר אין לך תלישה גדולה מזו ולכן יש למחות ביד הטועים והולכים לגנות בשבת ויו"ט וקוטפים פירות מן המחובר ואוכלים... וע"ע שער הציון ס"ק מ"ג.
3.
רש"י סוכה דף ל"ז ע"ב: אבל אתרוג דלאכילה קאי - כי מורח ליה מינשי ותליש ואכיל ליה, ואף אם אוכלו במחובר אין לך תולש גדול מזה:
4.
מנחות דף ע' ע"א: ואי גחין ואכיל בטלה דעתו אצל כל אדם:
5.
שם משבצות זהב ס"ק ז'. פמ"ג זה ויתר הפוסקים המצוינים בהמשך מובאים בשמירת שבת כהלכתה פכ"ו הערה ע"ב, עיי"ש.

2 comments:

  1. From Avodah:

    RYGB wrote:

    >Rav Pappa said: A person who threw a clump [of dirt] at a date-palm,
    >and dates fell, is liable for two [sin-offerings], one for plucking
    >and one for extracting. Rav Ashi said: This is not the normal manner of
    >plucking and this is not the normal manner of extracting. [Hence, he is
    >not in violation of these melachos, and does not bring any sin offerings.]

    The MinchatChinuch, in Musach HaShabbat, notes that the Rambam does not mention Rav Ashi's din. See Yad Shabbat 8;3.

    Mitzva l'yashev.

    >Tosafos Chaim suggests that it is only on Shabbos, and even on Yom
    >Kippur that falls on Shabbos that one may not smell the fruit attached
    >to the ground lest he come to pluck it (even on Yom Kippur, since it is
    >also Shabbos, we are afraid that he may forget it is also Yom Kippur,
    >and come to pluck the fruit). However, on a Yom Kippur that falls on a
    >weekday one is permitted to smell the fruit, for we assume he will remain
    >aware of the prohibition to eat and not come to pluck the fruit.

    I do not understand this at all. What is the svara that one is more likely to forget YK if it is Shabbat than a weekday? If we assume one will remember the prohibition to eat on a weekday YK, why don't we assume this on a Shabbat YK?

    "we are afraid that he may forget it is also Yom Kippur" IMHO tzarich lomar "we are afraid he may also forget it is Yom Kippur". Even with this correction, the statment within the parenthesis is worded poorly, and very difficult to understand.

    Saul Mashbaum


    Try this:



    Tosafos Chaim suggests that it is only on Shabbos that one may not smell the fruit attached to the ground lest he come to pluck it. Even if Yom Kippur coincides with Shabbos he may not smell the fruit, as we are afraid that he may forget that it is also Yom Kippur, and come to pluck the fruit to eat it. However, when Yom Kippur falls on a weekday one is permitted to smell the fruit, for we assume he will remain aware of the prohibition to eat and not come to pluck the fruit.

    ReplyDelete
  2. More from Avodah

    Micha Berger wrote:

    >On Wed, Jul 13, 2005 at 07:23:26PM -0400, RYGB wrote:
    >: /Tosafos Chaim/ suggests that it is only on Shabbos that one may not
    >: smell the fruit attached to the ground lest he come to pluck it. Even if
    >: Yom Kippur coincides with Shabbos he may not smell the fruit, as we are
    >: afraid that he may forget that it is also Yom Kippur, and come to pluck
    >: the fruit to eat it. However, when Yom Kippur falls on a weekday one is
    >: permitted to smell the fruit, for we assume he will remain aware of the
    >: prohibition to eat and not come to pluck the fruit.
    >
    >I was with you until the "he may forget that it is also Yom Kippur". I
    >was figuring the lemaaseh the gezeirah was made WRT Shabbos and not YK
    >or other Yom Tov.
    >
    >Otherwise, RSMashbaum's question seems to stand: Why would he remember
    >about the issur achilah of YK when it's on a Wed, but not on a Shabbos?
    >
    >I was also wondering if R' Chaim Brisker's Torah about inui being a
    >mega-shevisah associated with it being a "shabbos shabbaton" rather
    >than just a single shabbos. In which case, why would the issur achilah
    >be treated any differently than any (other) issur melakhah?
    >
    >-mi
    >



    I think it's pretty Baale-Battish. On a day which is kadosh from two aspects, we are afraid he may remember the one aspect and not the other, while on a day that is only kadosh from one aspect we are reasonably sure that is what he will remember.


    YGB

    ReplyDelete