An AI generated transcript of the episode follows at the bottom of the post.

Rischa D'Araisa Season 12 Episode 21:

שְׂאוּ־מָר֨וֹם עֵינֵיכֶ֤ם:

Klal Yisroel

as

Guardians of the Environment

https://listen.jewishpodcasts.fm/yeshivaofnewark/113797

Summary and text of podcast, Rischa D'Araisa - Season 12, Episode 21:
“שְׂאוּ־מָר֨וֹם עֵינֵיכֶ֤ם - Klal Yisroel as Guardians of the Environment”; January 27, 2026

Rabbi Barry Kornblau of Meisharim: Illuminating Priorities for Orthodox Communities used ElevenLabsIO to transcribe the podcast, and DeepAgent AI to handle its Yeshivish terminology and improve its overall readability. The Appendix includes the lightly edited result which retains some errors and should not be relied upon for exact quotations. Rabbi Kornblau guided DeepAgent AI to create the following summary and edited it.

Summary

This episode presents and analyzes American Yeshivish and Hasidic views and behavior regarding environmental issues and their causes. The conversation features Rabbi Avraham Kivelevitz (host), Rabbi Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer, and Rav Mayer Schiller, who critically examine environmental responsibility within Haredi communities. Rav Schiller offers the sharpest critique of Haredi insularity and environmental indifference, grounding his position in Rav Samson Rafael Hirsch's vision of Jews as "guardians of the natural environment." Rabbi Bechhofer adopts a more pragmatic stance, acknowledging tensions between environmental ideals and practical demands while critiquing consumerism. Rabbi Kivelevitz raises probing questions about implementation and seeks to understand diverse viewpoints. The conversation reveals fundamental tensions between Hirschian environmental consciousness and contemporary Haredi practice.

The Hirschian Ideal Versus Contemporary Haredi Practice

The discussion centers on the stark gap between Rav Hirsch's 19th-century vision of Torah Jews as environmental guardians and current Haredi community behavior. Rav Hirsch articulated that authentic servants of God would naturally care for His creation, making environmental stewardship integral to religious life. All three speakers affirm this ideal, yet acknowledge its near-total abandonment in yeshivish and Hasidic communities.

Contemporary Haredi communities demonstrate pronounced environmental disengagement: excessive disposable plastics, minimal recycling, and treatment of environmental regulations as persecution. Rav Schiller describes communities requiring garbage pickup three times weekly, suggesting profound disconnection from environmental impact.

Most fundamentally, Rav Schiller diagnoses radical insularity: "There is no world. The world doesn't exist, just as the rest of humanity doesn't exist, the oceans don't exist." This epistemic closure means external reality—including ecosystem destruction—does not register in communal decision-making. The Hasidic philosophy of "bitul Olam Hazeh" (negation of this world) has permeated even non-Hasidic yeshivish communities, creating a worldview where physical creation holds minimal value. Educational systems discourage curiosity about the natural world, producing adults for whom environmental concerns are literally unthinkable.

Rabbi Bechhofer adds an economic dimension: affluence has transformed possibility into practice. Previous generations washed and reused disposables from economic necessity; contemporary prosperity enables hedonistic consumption. Both Jewish and non-Jewish Americans have become "victims of crass, hedonist, exploitative, capitalist consumerism." Rabbi Kivelevitz suggests quasi-messianic complacency may also operate—if Mashiach will restore the world, current environmental damage becomes cosmically irrelevant.

Broader Societal Factors: Disconnect from Nature

The participants debate whether disconnect from the natural world stems solely from Haredi-specific factors or reflects broader societal trends affecting all communities. Several contributors to environmental detachment were discussed:

Darkened nights and light pollution have eliminated the experience of starry skies that once inspired awe and connection to creation. Urbanization concentrates populations in built environments where direct contact with nature becomes rare. Modern technology and indoor lifestyles reduce opportunities for experiencing seasonal changes, weather patterns, and natural beauty.

The conversation suggests these factors affect society broadly, but their impact intensifies within Haredi communities where ideological insularity compounds environmental isolation. While secular Americans might experience alienation from nature through urban life, Haredi communities add philosophical frameworks that actively discourage curiosity about the natural world. The combination creates particularly severe disconnection—not merely lacking exposure to nature, but viewing such exposure as spiritually irrelevant or even dangerous.

The Disposables Debate: Convenience, Honor, and Halacha

Disposable tableware crystallizes broader tensions between environmental responsibility, religious honor, practical necessity, and gender equity. Professor Samuel Lebens notes that religious families face genuine pressures—large families, frequent guests, communal responsibilities—that make disposables attractive. Rabbi Bechhofer argues that avoiding hours of post-Seder dishwashing is a legitimate consideration, enabling families, particularly women but also men, to be "bnei chorin" (free people) rather than enslaved to excessive labor. Modern disposables can be "very elegant," he notes.

Rabbi Kivelevitz offers a contrasting perspective rooted in kavod (honor) for sacred occasions. Real dishware possesses craftsmanship, and quality that disposables inherently lack. The halachic requirement to honor Shabbat and holidays demands beautiful objects. Heirloom Seder plates create "nostalgic linking of generations"—a connection disposables cannot provide. His disappointment when his daughter-in-law brought disposables to Pesach illustrates genuine intergenerational values conflict.

The halachic landscape proves complex. Rav Moshe Feinstein held that items "meant to be tossed" lack appropriate kedushah for ritual purposes, while Chacham Ovadia Yosef and Tzitz Eliezer permitted disposables, partly because in their context, disposables were often reused. Rabbi Kivelevitz argues cultural context has shifted: contemporary disposables are truly single-use, viewed as garbage, potentially changing the halachic calculus. Rabbi Bechhofer invokes bal tashchis (prohibition against waste), yet notes that "reasons of convenience, which are significant" create competing considerations.

Natural Curiosity and Torah: Competing Educational Pohilosophies

A fundamental debate emerged regarding "sakranut tiv'it" (natural curiosity): should it be channeled exclusively toward Torah study or developed broadly? Rav Dov Lando articulates the contemporary yeshiva position: "Use all one's natural curiosity only for Divrei Torah... This is the derech which we see from our Rabbeim—only to be immersed in learning Torah." Educational systems should not encourage inquiry into other areas. This view is presented sympathetically, noting Rav Lando has found endless fulfillment in Torah study alone.

Rav Schiller and the Hirschian tradition sharply contrast: natural curiosity should be actively developed, as it "makes you a better eved Hashem [servant of God]." Study of nature provides a pathway to understanding the Creator. Rav Schiller levels a devastating theological critique: suppressing curiosity about God's "vast universe" implies Creation exists "just as a trick to deceive Bnei Yeshivos." This makes God a "nasty trickster"—nearly a "demonic view of the Creator." If God created natural beauty, declaring it insignificant denigrates the Creator Himself.

The educational implications are profound. The contemporary yeshiva approach produces students lacking connection to "the awe and inspiration of a winter starry sky, or a beautiful sunset"—remaining indifferent to environmental destruction. This represents spiritual impoverishment, failure to experience "Hashamayim mesaprim kevod Keil" (the heavens declare God's glory). Rav Schiller proposes pluralism: different people possess different gifts. The problem isn't claiming "This is MY path" but insisting "This is THE path" while denigrating other legitimate forms of serving God.

Treatment of Animals and Cultural Boundaries

The conversation addresses troubling patterns in how Haredi communities relate to animals. Rav Schiller observes "not just indifference, there's almost an achzarius [cruelty]": children chasing cats to frighten them, deer displaced by housing development wandering hungry, and ritual practices conducted without regard for animal suffering. Animals are viewed through exclusively utilitarian religious lenses—children seeing chickens identify them immediately as "kapporos" (ritual objects) rather than living creatures.

Having pets in yeshivish and Hasidic communities would be "almost a pesul in a shidduch" (marriage disqualification). Dogs are acceptable only as guard animals, not companions. This cultural prohibition functions as boundary maintenance—separation from secular culture. Yet Rabbi Kivelevitz offers a counter-narrative: his dog provided emotional support during COVID, helping his family achieve compassion. He interprets Pesikta Rabbati's teaching that God gave Cain a dog after the fratricide to mean the dog was a therapeutic agent—the animal's unconditional love helped Cain achieve self-acceptance. This view finds no purchase where insularity dismisses both environmental concerns and potential value in animal companionship.

Science and Scientific Consensus

The conversation addresses the challenge of navigating scientific expertise and consensus within communities often skeptical of secular knowledge systems.

Rav Schiller argues for trusting expert consensus on environmental threats like global warming, wildfires, and species extinction; dismissing their expertise reflects ideological bias rather than rational skepticism. He offers a provocative heuristic: dismiss environmental views from "Republican-based Trumpists" and "baseless Chareidim" as both groups have systematic biases that prevent objective assessment of scientific evidence. Political and religious ideologies can create epistemological closure where empirical data cannot penetrate.

Rabbi Kivelevitz expresses genuine uncertainty about which institutions represent reliable science, reflecting broader difficulty navigating politicized discourse. In an era where scientific findings become entangled with partisan politics, Haredi communities face particular challenges: their general insularity from secular institutions combines with political conservatism that often rejects climate science, creating double barriers to accepting scientific consensus.

Theological Contradictions and Leadership Failures

The conversation identifies significant contradictions within Haredi practice. Most striking is the tension in "bitul Olam Hazeh" (negation of this world). Communities claim to reject materialism, yet the shtreimel—an expensive, status-oriented fur hat—occupies central cultural importance in Hasidic communities. As Rabbi Bechhofer quips, "Olam Hazeh is not big enough to contain the Shtreimel." Philosophical negation of materialism coexists with pronounced material status markers.

Religious leadership largely ignores environmental issues despite addressing "every possible issue" in other contexts. Agudath Israel's convention includes no environmental panel. Meanwhile, leaders model problematic behaviors: "Roshei yeshiva flying on private planes" when they "could have gone first class," demonstrating massive environmental impact for convenience.

Conclusion

This conversation reveals American Haredi Judaism grappling with fundamental tensions between competing visions of religious authenticity. The Hirschian ideal—integration of Torah wisdom with engagement in God's created world—stands in stark contrast to contemporary yeshivish and Hasidic insularity, which effectively renders the physical world invisible. Environmental destruction, animal suffering, and aesthetic beauty simply do not register within a worldview that has "no larger existence outside of their own world."

Multiple factors account for current practices: philosophical (bitul Olam Hazeh ideology predominant in Hasidic thought but influencing yeshivish communities), economic (affluence enabling hedonistic consumption), educational (suppression of natural curiosity in yeshiva systems), social (boundary maintenance through insularity), societal (urbanization and light pollution affecting all communities but compounded by ideological factors in Haredi contexts), and theological (narrow definition of divine service). The disposables debate encapsulates these tensions, balancing environmental responsibility against practical family needs, religious honor against convenience, and traditional aesthetics against contemporary culture.

Ultimately, the speakers demonstrate that critical self-examination remains possible within traditional frameworks, even as they acknowledge the immense difficulty of changing entrenched communal patterns. The conversation offers no easy resolutions but insists that environmental stewardship, care for animals, and appreciation for natural beauty constitute authentic expressions of serving the Creator—not distractions from it. Whether these voices—particularly Rav Schiller's Hirschian perspective and Sam Lebens's more integrative approach—can influence broader Haredi practice remains uncertain, but their willingness to name uncomfortable truths represents a crucial first step.

Appendix: lightly edited AI transcript of podcast episode

Rabbi Avraham Kivelevitz

[upbeat music] You're listening to the Yeshiva of Newark Podcast. I'm your host and curator, Rabbi Avraham Kivelevitz and I hope you enjoy this episode. I'm here with Rabbi Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer and Rav Mayer Schiller. Last week's program, it struck a chord by many of our listeners and I was encouraged to look at something that was available on, the great Gush Etzion website.

And it was there that I was able to find, an essay [lips smack] by Professor Samuel Lebens, who is an associate professor in the University of Haifa. An essay about Rav Shamshon Rafael Hirsch [https://etzion.Org.Il/en/philosophy/issues-jewish-thought/rabbinic-thought/rabbi-samson-raphael-hirsch], and specifically, the issue that we were, talking about and I thought it would be a good link to a broader issue. He, he mentions, as you did, Rabbi Schiller and Rabbi Bechhofer, that, so much of, today's Torah [Jewish law and teachings] world doesn't seem to be in line with the real core principles of Rav Hirsch.

As he says, "It's-- Torah is supposed to shape its adherents into warriors of love and justice towards all people and guardians of the natural environment as well." Now, this was something that we didn't emphasize that much in our sekirah ketzarah [brief overview] about Rav Hirsch. But I know, Rabbi Schiller that, that, that is mentioned often, the beauty of the natural world and we all know the memory of mein schweitz, mein schweitz.

You know, the HaKadosh Baruch Hu [the Holy One, Blessed be He] is going to have taynes on [complaints against] you if you don't really recognize the beauty and understand the, the great, beautiful world that's been given to us. But Lebens zeros in on this and I'll quote from his article here:

To offer another example of the gap between the ideals of Rabbi Hirsch and the reality in which we live. In the State of Israel, the use of disposable cutlery and plastic tablecloths has become heavily associated with the religious community. They tend to have bigger families who eat together more regularly than others might and host a large number of guests on a regular basis. Religious Torah communities also tend to organize, among themselves, social care for members in need and this requires people to cook food for others, in addition to their own family meals, and hospitality. Moreover, pressure on people's time, especially given their large families and their hospitality and social initiatives, often coupled with the lack of resources to pay for the assistance of a cleaner, creates a strong incentive to spend money on disposables, since the relevant cost-benefit analysis seems to render the expense worthwhile. This association has developed to such an extent that when Israeli politicians propose a green tax on these goods, it is decried as religious persecution.

To read Rabbi Hirsch's account of Jewish law, by contrast, one couldn't imagine how such waste and low regard for the natural environment could be deemed compatible with, let alone characteristic of, a halachic [pertaining to Jewish law] lifestyle, despite the various pressures within such a lifestyle that might explain the temptation to use such products."

Rav Mayer, I know that, you also were taken by it. Do you think, Professor Lebens gets it right?

Rav Mayer Schiller

So if you want to put forth this question, you say, if Rav Hirsch was transported into an era in which there was much greater awareness, I'm sure there's no question that he would see the, destruction of the ecosystem as, as inexcusable, that, servants of God would not destroy his world. But on the other hand, as in all such issues, to ask why in much of the Torah [Jewish law and teachings] world, there is no inyana v'eina in all of this, the answer is: there is no world.

The world doesn't exist, just as the rest of humanity doesn't exist, the oceans don't exist, the water system doesn't. Nothing exists. Nothing exists outside of their world. Now, if anybody proposes anything which might, in the slightest way, inconvenience them, so therefore, he's, he's, he's at war. He's fighting against him. He's a warrior against their way of life. But in your overall question, absolutely.

How can a person who's concerned with Hashem [God] as the creator of the world, who's concerned with the future of humanity, not be concerned with the massive destruction of the ecosystem affected by man?

By and large, I think the answer is yes. Of course, going back to the nineteenth century, awareness of ecology, or as they called it in those days, conservation, was not nearly as widespread as it is today.

Rabbi Avraham Kivelevitz

I'm almost reminded of that five-year-old boy that you spoke about last week. You almost feel that there's almost an idea that, that when Mashiach [Messiah] komt [comes], of course, the world will be closer to the beautiful, pristine, Gan Eden [Garden of Eden]-like world, right? In other words, I should care about, you know, what I throw into the ocean, or I should care about the fact that the landfills have more plastic bottles and more plastic bottles. you know, when Mashiach komt, the world will be closer to, such a great, beautiful state. It's a geit nisht altz [doesn't matter].

Rabbi Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer

So Rabbi Schiller, back then in 1989, already was decrying that not just the Gentiles but also the Jews in America had become victims of crass consumerism. And I can't imagine that he believes, or any of us believe, that since 1989, situation has gotten better.

I quote Rabbi Schiller from an article he wrote in 1989 in Jewish Action: "The lack of a common stake, or at least cultural trust in America has left its citizens to become the primary victims, and ultimately missionaries of a crass, hedonist, exploitative, capitalist consumerism." End quote from Rabbi Schiller.

Rabbi Avraham Kivelevitz

Did I miss something? is this a different show? Because I was asking you about, specifically about the use of these disposables and things like-

Rabbi Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer

Well, of course, that's crass consumerism.

Rabbi Avraham Kivelevitz

Look at the way Lebens frames it, though. He frames it because of necessity, because of the fact that there's so many children, and, and, and and they have toand the cleaning is impossible. Aa- and he's talking about Israel, not about consumerism in America.

Rabbi Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer

But we become affluent, we become hedonist, with crass consumerism, and therefore, again, to quote Rabbi Schiller, right, this has has made us, victims of our own success. By the way, the name of Rabbi Schiller's article, if somebody wants to look it up, it is on the web, on, Rabbi Dr. Yitzchak Levine's website, "The Forgotten Humanism of Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch” [https://web.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/rsrh/humanisim_rsrh.pdf]

It's, it's the same thing. Isn't the same phenomenon in Israel? Because we can afford it. Back in our day, when we were young, young yeshiva students back in Eretz Yisrael [Land of Israel], they wouldn't throw away disposable! They would go, "My, my, my great-aunt would put disposable. We'll wash the disposable and use it over and over again," right?

Rabbi Avraham Kivelevitz

But I, I remember, you know, we, hosted my, my, my, my children, and grandchildren, a number of beautiful Pesach [Passover] sedorim [Passover meals] with other people. And, my wife and I would work, slavishly to bring out, the Pesach dishes that we had, the Pesach china. And one year, when my, my daughter-in-law came over, she announced to us with great simchah [celebration] that she had brought this beautiful chad pa'ami [disposable] [laughing], this beautiful chad pa'ami plates, and silverware.

Now, look, I appreciate what you're saying, Rabbi Yosef. They have more money, but it really avoids the point. That's not what Rabbi Lebens was talking about. Yes, it's. There's reasons why this maybe should be what we are after, in other words, by the Charedi velt [ultra-Orthodox world]. But what they've done is shunted aside kavod haYom Tov [honor of the holiday], kavod Shabbos [honor of the Sabbath], kavod [honor] simchahs. I, I say in this regard a story, and I don't blame my, my daughter-in-law about this.

Rabbi Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer

My in-laws do the same thing. They used to use their precious china and silver and have to spend the whole night washing dishes after the Seder [Passover meal]. I don't see that as kavod [honor] Yom Tov [holiday]. If you can afford to use plastic, use plastic. It's simple.

Rabbi Avraham Kivelevitz

But, but, oh, come on. I mean, you, you, you. Before we get to whether this is really the height environmental, aveira [sin] of, of using plasticware, you don't think that it shows more kavod to have things that-

Rabbi Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer

No, it shows more kavod to be able to go to sleep!

Rabbi Avraham Kivelevitz

[chuckles] I hear. Look, we-

Rabbi Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer

You only say that because you're a man and you won't stay up and wash the dishes. It's something that subjugates the women on Pesach [Passover], so they have to work hard after the Seder is over, yeah.

Rabbi Avraham Kivelevitz

Is this the subjugation of women?

Rabbi Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer

It is.

Rabbi Avraham Kivelevitz

The subjugation of women? That's what it's about?

Rabbi Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer

Yes. Or men, if they have to stay up and wash the dishes. It doesn't matter. Men also, it's the same thing. Usually, it's the women who stay up and the men who go to sleep, 'cause they claim they have to. They have more to have in the morning. But, men, too. That's how we do it.

Rabbi Avraham Kivelevitz

Obviously, you look at, at, at, at something that is a, a, a beautifully, done thing. This is the whole idea of Leil Pesach [Passover night], is to basically be midemeh [to liken oneself] yourself to what is considered fancy and elegant.

Even according to your model, which I, which I refute, think about it for a second. You, you have a dish, you have a plate, you have a beautiful bowl, you have things,it can be that type of. You can't get that type of thickness, you can't get that type of multiple use out, you can't get the craftsmanship. All of that is part of kavod. It's not so much, "Oh, this is much more expensive." The expense is a siman to the quality. The expense is.

Rabbi Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer

Sorry, I can't relate to that. Maybe I'm too much of a yekke. I can't relate to that. To me, it's all about having to stay up extra time and, to wash the dishes and it goesit's antithetical to the idea of being bnei chorin [free people], if anything. 'Cause bnei chorin means you don't have to actually wash the dishes and you're advocating this tremendous of, avodah, which somebody has to do after the Seder. To me, it means-

Rabbi Avraham Kivelevitz

You know what? Why are you looking at the seifa [the end] and not the essence? Bizman hazeh [in this time], bizman hazeh, you're, you're putting onto your plate-

Rabbi Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer

Because there's always the pay-

Rabbi Avraham Kivelevitz

Well, you know what you're put-

Rabbi Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer

There's always a piper to pay.

Rabbi Avraham Kivelevitz

We, you know what?

Rabbi Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer

You have to pay the piper.

Rabbi Avraham Kivelevitz

You're putting the brisket, or the, which is k'ein [like] the korban Pesach [Passover sacrifice], whatever, on something that's going to get tossed out!

Rabbi Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer

Doesn't taste any different what it's put on. They make very elegant paper plates nowadays.

Rabbi Avraham Kivelevitz

At my im yirtzeh Hashem [God willing] daughter's wedding to be, Rabbi Yosef, my good friend, who shows up and dances and brings his jump rope and all the other tachlis [practical purpose] over there and then my daughter gets, as a matanah [gift], a wonderful package of disposable, nice plasticware that she could use, for, for Yom Tov [holiday]. What would I think of that gift? Isn't the sign of a chashuv [important] gift, meaning what you want to put on your table for the Ribbono Shel Olam [Master of the Universe]? Look at Shulchan Aruch [Code of Jewish Law] about how you're supposed to mechabed [honors] Shabbos [Sabbath] and Yom Tov.

Rabbi Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer

Is it we're hedonists because we can afford it? [laughing] Yes. Okay, we can afford it, so that's how we do it. Is it the right thing to do? No, but that's what we do.

If somebody is going to wash the dishes, that's fine. If I, I'm going to give you something which is going to make you more work? Now, hahappens to be, yes, women appreciate china for reasons which are beyond my capacity to understand. But in the meantime, the people who use plasticware don't have that. They have my sense of aesthetics, not your sense of aesthetics, and therefore they're fine with the plasticware. Now, is it crass consumerism?

Rabbi Avraham Kivelevitz

I mean, we have a Seder [Passover meal] plate that Baruch Hashem [thank God] we have for almost forty-something years and I hope, b'ezras Hashem [with God's help], to leave it to my children and I hope that they'll say, "Oh, this was the Seder plate that the tateh [father] genutz [used]." all of that, I think is, I think very, very significant and I think that is lost in the chad pa'ami situation.

I think Rav Mayer, who's, who's a little bit older than me, I, I think understands the, the, the philosophy, or the mindset that I have about, about the tachlis that are been around. And you're right, you need to wash them, and carefully pack them. But what beauty you have when you take that out?

Rav Mayer Schiller

We went to that issue and then each one of these different issues has a different weight to be attached to it. And now Rabbi Kivelevitz has added a third, which is the nostalgic linking of generations in items that have been in the family for a long time.

I think we've, we've, entangled several issues which need be disentangled. [laughing] One is the question of the effect of the environment of, plastic and other items on the environment, which is what we started with. Then we went to the issue of is it more of a kavod [honor] dik to have plates as opposed to plastic utensils and plates? Then we went to the shverkeit [difficulty] for the, for the wife and for the children, whoever's washing them.

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I'm Avrom Kivelevitz. Thank you. [upbeat music]

Dear listeners, when we sit down to record an episode for the Yeshiva of Newark Podcast Network, we're always mindful of one thing: who's listening and why they keep coming back. We know that you're not just tuning in once. You're coming back episode after episode and that tells us something important. It means our conversations are resonating with you. That kind of impact is humbling and it's also a responsibility.)

Rav Mayer Schiller

And I'm sure he washed it. I know he wasn't home. I'm sure he washed it himself, 'cause he felt that a mitzvah [commandment] needs the kedushas [holiness] of, of plates and dishes. But I think Rabbi Akivah would allow for that if in a case where he's doing the washing, and transporting himself, he would certainly allow for that.

Listen, how much weight we attach to polluting the environment, how much weight we attach to not making life too difficult for, for wives and children, these are all varied questions. I, I can't weigh in on them. On the overall question that we kicked off, though, which is the environment, the, the plastic pollution is an important part of contemporary pollution. It's an important question, though, plastic pollution.

Listen, how much weight you're going to attach to each one of these issues. II'll just mention as the introductory story here, there was once a yungerman [young married man] in the square who was a talmid chacham [Torah scholar] yerei Shamayim [God-fearing], and, whenever he made a simchahh [celebration], in the shul, which is where, like, the brises [circumcisions] and bar mitzvahs [coming of age ceremonies] were made, he would bring from his house regular plates, dishes, and silverware, which he transported his own, schlepping it in a, a wagon and slept at home.

Rabbi Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer

I agree. I agree it's a big problem, the use of plastic disposables. I'm just explaining why it's pragmatic perspective. It makes a lot of sense and that's why it's going to be very hard to get rid of it.

Rabbi Avraham Kivelevitz

Not only do I feel that it's a pegam [defect] in kavod Shabbos [honoring Shabbos], if you can get away with it, despite whatever the, the cost is. The second thing I would say is that I think in this argument that we're having is somewhat reflective of the machloket [dispute] of Rav Moshe Feinstein and Chacham Ovadia about the use of, chad pa’ami [disposable] cups for, Kiddush [sanctification], for Netilat Yadayim [ritual handwashing], and other things.

Rabbi Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer

Well, I'd say Rav Ovadia – there’s also Tzitz Eliezer. They're both meikel [lenient]. You know, it's not just, our acheinu Sephardim. It's also Bnei Ashkenaz.

Rabbi Avraham Kivelevitz

Granted and of course. But I'm saying Rav Moshe, I think, reflected some of that older generation when he talked about: How can you have something it's now, that's meant to be tossed? When you have something that is a cup that's meant to be tossed, then that takes away the kedushas [holiness] of the same case.

Rabbi Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer

But again, at the time that Tzitz Eliezer and Rav Ovadia are saying, like I said before, and this, I think, perhaps relates to the machloket [dispute] between Rav Moshe and Rav Shlomo Zalman about cholent bones, that -

Rabbi Avraham Kivelevitz

Right

Rabbi Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer

That, so the Eretz Yisrael and American cultural differences. In the time of Tzidkeel Eliezer and and Rav, Rav Ovadia writing the teshuvos [responsa], they washed chad pani [disposable] in Eretz Yisrael. Those cups, those got washed and used again.

Rabbi Avraham Kivelevitz

They said, "We treat this as a case, despite the fact that it does get put into the, this, into the garbage disposal, or wherever, into the, into the trash bin, because it is a case." This is what the velt [world] looks like as a case, which I guess is, is reflective of the fact that, whether it's consumerism, the way you, I think, incorrectly stated it, or the fact that, we are a, a culture that has lived more about on disposables in general and maybe that's because we've shrugged about the environment.

But the velt has changed and I think because the attitudes have changed of how we view cups and plates and these things, I think because of that, the Halakha [Jewish law] will. Even Rav Moshe might be modeh [agrees], given the landscape of, of today. But, but let me, let me ask both of you. Both of you seem to agree with Dr. Lebens that this is, like, a, a, a, a, a, a real, salvo against, the environment, of the use of plasticware.

The whole idea of environmentalism is such a difficult thing to wrap your head around because there's so many-. Aspects of how we are saving the environment. Would you say, Rav Mayer and Rabbi Yossef, that a family that decides to buy, because of perhaps cost-effectiveness, a gasoline car is also guilty ofand, and, and and Hirsch would also be against that environmental destruction?

Would you say, "Okay, I, I could have bought a Prius, or I could have bought a complete electric car and I went with a gasoline car because it's, at this point, difficult to handle and I can't afford that." So am I also a, an environmental killer? Am I also someone who is showing a crass disregard about God's world?

And again and it could be that's also, the fact that there is that change between Rav Moshe, who's, despite the fact he's, conthey're contemporaries, he was from a different dor and I think the world did change.

Rabbi Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer

Look, according to the Rambam [Maimonides], the Rambam holds it is a mitzvah [commandment] asei to use things, [speaking in foreign language] Every time you throw out a plastic bottle, you're being without the mitzvah asei. 'Cause we, you, you, you actually use the boand I wrote about this in my article in Kaminetz, in Kaminetz about recycling many years ago. The, the, the, you, you, Hashem [God] chas v'shalom. [laughing]

Rabbi Avraham Kivelevitz

[laughing] Yeah, yeah, I, I was waiting for it. Listen, you started with a nice, an evastica quoting of, of, of Schiller, but, you know, we're just waiting for you to, you know, to bring forth your own, your own reference. Go ahead. [laughing] Go ahead.

Rabbi Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer

When, for reasons of sconvenience, which are significant, one doesn't do the ultimate in recycling, or in multiple uses of an object, it's okay. Okay? There are other, there are other cheshbonos [considerations]. Electric vehicles, we know that there are other cheshbonos as well. It's very, takes a little. We just rented an electric vehicle for the first time when we were in California recently, and, you know, it's a problem to fill them, to, to reto, to, recharge them.

If you don't have a dedicated recharging unit at home, it could take hours and hours to recharge them, a long time. It could take a long wait and you're afraid of running out on the road of your charge. So there are other ccheshbonos, which we'll, we'll still say-

Anyway, so the, she'eilas, you never allowed to throw out a plastic bottle, because you're going to get married, shelo chas v'shalom. So obviously, the statistic says when we throw them out, where we don't actually put them in the recycling bin, and, the. 'Cause there are various different. 'Cause he speaks about it when, you know, it's not considered, it's not considered to be a, a bal tashchis [prohibition against wastefulness] and the bottom line is that there may.

Rabbi Avraham Kivelevitz

So what about Lebens cheshbonos [considerations] for the frum velt [religious world]? Somehow that's, those aren't as good as your heshbon [consideration]?

Rabbi Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer

No, I agree with cheshbonos. I think that then. So it's a complicated thing. It's not so simple. I said before that, you know, even though it is something which we can only, we only do because we can afford it and we are a hedonistic society, there are ccheshbonos, like the washing dishes, which do count, come into account. It's a complicated thing.

Rabbi Avraham Kivelevitz

So, so sometimes the personal heshbon sometimes overrides the, the chiyuv [obligation] that we have to this planet-

Rabbi Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer

Of course, it does

Rabbi Avraham Kivelevitz

.. you're saying.

Rabbi Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer

Yes.

Rabbi Avraham Kivelevitz

Okay, okay. So, let me ask you again: you said that you flew out to California. Okay, air travel on vacations, should we also, you know, in terms of the way Lebens looks at things, that, you know, this goes against the Hirschian ideal of, of protecting the planet. If Lebens is right, then we need to question not just the Chareidim, who are using, chad pa'ami, but we also have to question all the trips there to Israel, the vacations that we take, all these things which are damaging the environment.

Rabbi Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer

Right, you should take question them and realize that vacation is something which is special, has to be, something which is special, which is required for a person's mental health, or for their shalom bayis [domestic harmony], or whatever else case may be and do it on that basis. You're correct. One should not be flippant in this regard. It should bother you more are the Roshei yeshiva [heads of yeshiva] who are flying on private, private planes, gallivanting from place to place when they're. They could have gone, first class. Are you going to defend the Roshei yeshiva and the rabbis, or not?

Rabbi Avraham Kivelevitz

But there's so many other things which are difficult to know, right? How about the fact that I didn't get solar panels? it, it's so hard to figure out this area, you know, this thing that, that we're saying from Rav Hirsch, that we must protect this planet and we have a, a responsibility to Ribbono Shel Olam’s Bria [Creation]. How do we know how to put that into, into effect? there's, there's so many steps where, is this environmentally conscious? Is this not?

Is this going overboard, right? Turning the air conditioning on. These are all things which are impossible to grasp. I'm not saying, like you said, Rav Mayer, that we close our eyes and expect Mashiach to come and like the good fairy in The Wizard of Oz, change everything, you know, back into the way everything was. Bbut I think this is an area that, that, that we can get entangled, as you say, and and I think it's hard to find the derech [way].

So how are you, a Hirschian environmentalist, bichllal [in general], in this velt?

[laughing] Look, I obviously have, have, have. I, I was on your side. my point is this is a Pandora's box, but I think that it's such an inexact way. How do you know how you're damaging the environment, Rav Mayer? That's my question. There's so many actions that we do. You're right, throwing plasticware is something that we can see. Go out to Staten Island, and look at the Fresh Kills, and you can see all the landfills and you know where it's going.

Rav Mayer Schiller

So here's the first thing I would say, rule of thumb, that anything which emanates, any shita, which emanates from the Republican-based, Trumpists, as well as from the baseless Chareidim, anything which comes from those two environs is suspect, because the Trumpists are forever involved in trying to protect, in some way, the super wealthy. And as we said before, the Chareidi shevet [sector] has no larger existence outside of their own world. So those two don't have a derech [way].

How much we should worry about the other things? Okay. So governments have tried to prevent a lot of these things, help a lot of these things. Some of them are really at a dangerous point, as every summer you have some dangerous wildfire in the Far West. The water supplies are increasingly polluted.

So I think we have to take counsel with people who know what they're talking about in these areas and then try as best we can to translate it into our own individual lives.

What I would say is that there are so many areas of, life-threatening pollution in the world today. The wildfires in the West because of drought and the rising, the rising sea levels, which may, eventually engulf all these garbage dumps on Long Island. many species are threatened. These species are necessary for biodiversity. There are so many water pollution. There are so many areas that are real. So, you know, what does a person do? What does a person think?

Rabbi Avraham Kivelevitz

Well, I don't know which organism we use as representative of pure science but do you believe there's a consensus, you know, on, on what the environmental levels should be? On where—what when are we considered dangerously destroying the, the, the planet? Is there a, is there a scientific consensus on this?

Rav Mayer Schiller

You should come here on our streets in Monsey, or my streets, not Rabbi Bechhofer's necessarily, but my streets in Monsey. The amazing amount of garbage that goes out three times a week. Three times a week! So again, I would think there has to be something done here in terms of just simply the amount of space, and pollution occupied by garbage. Now, again, if you have a lot of children, there's going to be problems with a lot of this.

But certainly somebody, somewhere in all the minutes, hours spent by the Mo'etzet [Council], during the alternative debating every possible issue on the face of the earth, there might be a panel there at the next Agudah [Agudath Israel organization] convention on polluting the earth's environment.

This is not my area of great expertise. I've engaged in some superficial reading of the subject, but certain things seem not to be contested. I mean, global warming, the, the melting of the ice caps, theseems, not to be contested. But real experts should be consulted. Plus, again, you get to the, to the Frum Velt [religious world]. They're not just involved in major use of plastic materials, but enormous amounts of garbage.

Rabbi Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer

Listen, the, the bottom line, which Rabbi Mayer is not, not saying, but was clear fromuh, emerges from his words, is that the Chasidish bitul Olam Hazeh [negation of this world], which is per, perwhich is also per, permeated the Litvish Velt [world], is, one which says that environmentalism and regard for garbage and all that type of thing, is something which is insignificant. Even though there isthere are contradiktory elements in this, because the Shtreimels [fur hats] nowadays are, Olam Hazeh [this world]- [chuckles]

Rav Mayer Schiller

Is not big enough to contain the Shtreimels [fur hats]. No room left.

Rabbi Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer

Right. [chuckles] Olam Haba [the world to come].

Rav Mayer Schiller

Right.

Rabbi Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer

So there's not consistency necessarily-

Rav Mayer Schiller

Right

Rabbi Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer

.. in this regard.

Rav Mayer Schiller

Right. Right.

Rabbi Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer

But there is, there, there-

Rabbi Avraham Kivelevitz

How about, how about the fact that the Shtreimels [fur hats] are, perhaps preying on, animals that might be in danger?

Rav Mayer Schiller

In Monsey, in general, we often see these days families of deer walking around because they've been dispossessed by the, the rapid expansion of homes being built here and they're wandering around trying to find something to eat or drink for their, their kids. The cruelty shown by children to the, to the ducks on Lake Suzanne, the chasing of, of cats to frighten them. So there is this general - it's not just indifference, there's almost an achzarius [cruelty] in terms of the animal world.

I'm very glad you made that point, 'cause I think there is another point on the table here when you talk about the physical world, that the Heimish Velt [insular Jewish community], does not have any pity on the animal kingdom or, or on, you know, the, reptile kingdom that.

Rabbi Avraham Kivelevitz

My good friend who lives up in a farm in Sullivan County, talks about the Chasidishe kids that come by and when they see the chickens, they said, "Oh, look at the kapporos [atonement ritual], the kapporos. Oh-

Rav Mayer Schiller

Sure

Rabbi Avraham Kivelevitz

The kapporos." Right. The chicken is not really a chicken, the chicken is only a, a kapparah [atonement].

Rav Mayer Schiller

I would say, you know, when you get to kapporos [atonement ritual], I'm not going into, should we do the minhag [custom], shouldn't we do it? But there has to be some sense that these creatures are terrified by the experience. They're locked up in cages and swung around, you know.

Rabbi Avraham Kivelevitz

Which is, by the way, for those of you who want to check out Lebin's essay on the Gush website, that's the second example that he gives, that Hirsch would have been, very disappointed with and about the way, the way, the way the animal world and the shtreimel, specifically, the cruelty, that goes on and the way the animals are penned and shechted. This is something which he feels isn't antithetical to Hirsch's, philosophy.

Rav Mayer Schiller

The “Hashamayim mesaprim kevod Keil, the Shamayim mesaprim kevod Keil, u'ma'aseh yadav maggid harakia [The heavens recount the glory of God and tell the work of His hands.]” - they don't have it. It's not just practical, they're lacking the, the soul connection to the Bria [Creation].

Sure. I'd go a step further and this is a bit more of a, of a romantic gesture, perhaps, but I think it's based in. You see it in Tehillim, and elsewhere. The, the disconnect from the natural world bichlal [in general], the, the awe and inspiration of a, a winter starry sky, or a beautiful sunset, or a snowfall. Everything which inspires has inspired poets for thousands and thousands of years. Again, the yeshiva velt [world], the Chasidish Velt does not have this. They don't have a sense of the unique beauty.

Rabbi Avraham Kivelevitz

But, you know, man, in a different era, spent half of his life staring up at the beauty of Shamayim, and saying, “Mi bara Ela?” [Isaiah: “Who created these? [God did.]”]. Today, because of streetlights, because of fog, because of smog, because of everything, we are not taken [in awe by this] when we walk home at night from shul. We can barely.. it isn't clear, it isn't translucent, it isn't beautiful and I think that's part of, part of the problem. I think that when a generation had a world that was in that dark stage, of the kochavim and the mazalos [stars and constellations], it had to affect them. [chuckles] Even if they didn't have electric lights to be able to learn more, but they had to, even when they looked up, to be nispa'el [inspired] from the Ribbono Shel Olam and, and and the velt that he had created.

Rabbi Mayer, let me, let me push back a little bit on that. The nisyonos [challenges] might be in the sprawling cities that you mentioned before, it's so difficult to see Shamayim [the heavesns]. You know when you have a Lakewood or a Monsey - that even though you're right - had you taken away so much of that build-up, you would be able to see kochavim [stars].

Rabbi Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer

"Ze HaZe HaZo HaDerech Shiki Balni Raboseinu Zatal B'chol Haderes." This is the derech [way] which we see from our Rabbeim in all the generations. "Rak Lihyot Shkum B'Limud HaTorah," only to be immersed in learning Torah [Jewish law and teachings]. So, no, there I disagree with you, Rav Avraham, Bezrat Hashem. I wish you were correct, but that's not the case.

I think that, Rav Dov sent me this, asking me, you know, my opinion about this and I said, "He's right, Lishitaso [according to his approach]." Even if individuals can inquire into other areas, the educational system should not encourage it. The Sakranut Tiv'it [natural curiosity], from that perspective, is not something to be encouraged, but to be channeled. If there's an individual who, you know, can't channel it, so then we have to deal with that.

But the, the yeshiva velt today is of the opinion, like he says- it's derech ha'doros [way of the generations], which I see means going three generations back - this has been the derech as cultivated by the Olam HaYeshivos [world of yeshivas] to negate and and suppress, and at best, rechannel Sakranut Tiv'it.

Yes, well, I think, I think Rav Mayer, though, however, however, is right to speak, 'cause Rav Dov Lando, just a couple of days ago, made the following statement. This was sent to ussent to me by a good friend of this program, Rav David Heida. He said that, the, "When Atzel Et Kol HaSakronut HaTivit," to use all one's natural curiosity, "Ach V'rak L'divrei Torah [words of Torah]," only for Divrei Torah. "Yesh Habey Ma Limtzo BaTorah," and there's a lot to find in Torah.

Rav Mayer Schiller

I would agree with you completely and I would only add, as I have a few times in this program, what does that do for our image of Almighty God? In other words, His vast universe was something created just as a trick to deceive Bnei Yeshivos and HaYeshivos to do things they shouldn't be doing. What a, what an extraordinary, I don't want to use the word satanic, or demonic view of the Creator. What a trickster. What a nasty trickster He is.

Rabbi Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer

"Suma Raminachem Rumibora Ela" does not apply. Maybe once upon a time, or maybe for people not Bnei Torah [Torah scholars], but not for Bnei Torah.

Rav Mayer Schiller

And, and and why did God make beauty? It, it's such an extraordinary rephrasing of their whole worldview. Beauty is insignificant. The beauty of the Creator is insignificant.

Rabbi Avraham Kivelevitz

And, and, and and the fact that even now, in his, in his mid-nineties, his faculties are immense, and, and and I'm nispa'el about his beki'us [breadth of knowledge], his hekkef [scope] and he is takeh [indeed] finding tremendous areas of interest in Vaiter and Nochazak, which, which, which really shock you because he's, he's able to make your head spin in terms of his, of the wealth of his, of his yedi'os [knowledge].

And, and many times and this is not, defending him completely, but many times we look at the world in the glasses that, that are reflective of ourselves. yeah, by him, maybe it's a berakah [blessing] that the, that we don't get disturbed by the startling stars in the sky. Maybecause this way, yeah, because. But the point is, in that velt, that's where his mind is going. And I will just add, I'm sure he believes that he's being - I have no doubt that it's what's beating in his mind and heart- that he's being davuk [cleaving] to the Ribbono Shel Olam. And you're right, Rav Mayer, not a Ribbono Shel Olam who created an incredible world, of beauty and power and, an immense, to be nispa'el from, but still the Borei [Creator] of the Velt, the Creator, the one who Rav Dov is hoping, to be mistabek [clinging to] with, achar me'ah v'esrim [after 120 years, when he dies], so he's not less of a spiritual person. His spirituality is, is of, of, of a unique sense and I agree with you, Rabbi Yosef. They probably look at people who, who care about the natural world as, "Well, nebach [unfortunately], they can't use that sacranut [curiosity] in Torah, so let them become scientists, or let them, marvel, at a museum."

I think, Rav Dov, you say, Lishitaso [according to his approach]. I'm going to say it's Rav Dov Lishitaso specifically, because if you look at his Torah, and you look at, you know, where he's going, he takeh has, an incredibly fertile, creative and sakranut in everything, in learning, in learning.

Rav Mayer Schiller

It's good for goyim, maybe. For the goyim, it's good. You know, Rabbi, Rabbi Yosef, I'll just say the following, that obviously all human beings are created differently. There are people who are specialists in learning, specialists in davening [praying], specialists in chesed [kindness], specialists in sympathy to human beings and then we can't all be specialists in everything. But what we can do is not denigrate the other aspects of Avodah Hashem [service of God]. He's not saying, "This is my path, but there are other paths." He's saying, "This is the path."

Rabbi Avraham Kivelevitz

I agree and in that sense, I am being critical of him. But I understand why he said it, because I understand him. I've seen his learning, [chuckles] and I can see, yeah, for him, there is that other Rivash to go into. There is that incredible diyuk [precise analysis], to, to rediscover.

Rabbi Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer

That's true. I just want to point out, going back to our original perspective here, as Hershians, we believe that Sakranut Tiv'it is, is something which should be developed, and encouraged and it makes you a better Avodah Shaem, right? Yes, Rav Dov's profound perspective mis understood very well from your, the way you're explaining it, but again, we differ in philosophy.

Rabbi Avraham Kivelevitz

I wouldn't say it's a kashya on [question against] Hirsch, from Hirsch to Rav Dov. So, and the Rambam [Maimonides] already, you know what I'm saying? [chuckles]

Rav Mayer Schiller

From Almighty God, forget about Hirsch to the Rambam [Maimonides], from God Almighty as creator.

Rabbi Avraham Kivelevitz

And you actually see that in the teshuvahh [repentance], Teshuvos [responsa] Beis Moshe, in the early'60s, when, someone came to, [lips smack] Rav Moshe Stern with the she'eilah [religious question], that he was in Manhattan and he was invited, to a luxury apartment in Manhattan. And he was surprised that as soon as he entered into the house, a, a lap dog was picked up by the matron of the house and put into his lap and he was told how this was, their, their pet.

And, and the fellow, right after Shabbos, wrote a, a, she'eilah to Rav Moshe Stern, you know, does he have to do teshuvahh? you know, he couldn't believe that this had happened to him, that he, that, that an animal was in his, in his grasps on Shabbos.

And when Rav Moshe Stern answers him, he said, he keeps on saying, "The meshuggoim who did this to you, who held this pet, and, and and who, who picked the animal up, it's clearly a sign of shiggaon [craziness]." And, and of course, he, he dealt with, some of the mentions from the Mordechai HaRo'eh about the birds that were singing and of course, that's so much different than holding a, a, a, an animal like a dog as anything except a guard animal. Has it behas it begun to change?

. You know, Rav Mayer mentions the concern towards the animal world, and and we, we know the disdain most Chareidi Jews have in Eretz Yisrael [Land of Israel] for the cats that are, considered a pest there. But the animals that are pets, however, this is something which iit would be almost a pesul [disqualification] in a shidduch [marriage match], wouldn't it? the idea of holding an animal and keeping an animal as a, a, as, as a loving pet in your family.

Rav Mayer Schiller

It, it, it, it's like a, a smartphone and women driving. It's one of those ways you distinguish yourself as not being really inside.

Rabbi Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer

Do bachurim [yeshiva students] have pets?

Rav Mayer Schiller

Yes, sure, sure. Sure, well, well, once you're stepping out [then] you're stepping out in those areas.

Rabbi Avraham Kivelevitz

But, but is some of it tinged. In order to keep that hitnavdut [separation], is there almost like a, like a, like a pushback against how disgusting an animal is and how could you even have an animal?

Rav Mayer Schiller

No, the hardcore doesn't need to push back against anything.

Rabbi Avraham Kivelevitz

Rav Mayer Schiller

The hardcore is it, what they do is it, and everybody else is meshuggoim [crazy people] at best.

Rabbi Avraham Kivelevitz

And, we unfortunately, we had to lay [our dog] to rest right before Thanksgiving of the past year. And as we buried her, in our backyard, I mentioned the, the Chazal [our Sages] in the Pesikta Rabbati [ancient Midrashic work], that said, "Vayosa Hashem [God] le’kayin ois [God made a sign for Cain]" and the Pesikta Rabbati says, "The ois - ze hakelev." Now, besides being an incredible connection to human and a dog relations, which, which, you know, zoologists, have found very unique in the animal world and that seems to be Chazal's understanding of that, that's where it began from Kayin.

I felt that there was more than just a dog offered Kayin protection, from the people who would hate him and the people who would kill him, who would see him as an outcast. But also, the dog helped Kayin come to terms with himself. it was clear that Kayin had a, a long life of regret, his jealousy, his, his hatred of himself. And having a, an animal that would look into your eyes and that would give you love and loyalty, would not only allow you to love yourself, but also even to love others who seem to look at you with disdain.

And I thought that in the same way - our dog, she helped us be able to look at the world, because when COVID began, there was a lot of mistrust where I lived. There was a lot of fear, anxiety, the, the little units that we formed, the sort of anger …by the scientists in a certain way, the fear of, of those that were getting too close. And having the dog allowed us not only something of comfort, but also, I think, allowed us to view the rest of the world like that original dog that was given, to Kayin, as a way that we could somehow look at others with compassion. And that was a, a tremendous gift, although, you know, a, a, the dog, unique among pets, meets the eyes of its master and always is looking at the eyes of its master to see if it's doing the right thing.

Although Dolly lost a good amount of her vision, by the time we put her to sleep, the look that she gave us, the, the type of, feeling that we bonded with her, I, I think, was something, was a tremendous gift and is, the same gift that God had granted, to the fallen one, so long ago.

So Rabbi Berkov wants me to mention the fact that after two months of, of mourning, [chuckles] after I came back from Eretz Yisrael, my wife surprised me by, bringing, last week, into our home, a new, dog, sort of a distant cousin of Dolly, a, a throwback Pomeranian, quite a bit bigger than, than Dolly was. we now met-- we now have Oscar in our house.

So having this animal and being careful of its needs and worrying about it and picking up its, [chuckles] picking up its waste is, in a sense, again, a lesson of, of concern that we have to have for that natural, that world, that world of beauty. So welcome, Oscar, to the, to the Rischa family. Hopefully, you'll join us here, one of these days. Rav Yosef, when are you getting yours?

Many of you listeners know, of course, that, I received a dog before COVID began, not because we knew COVID was coming. And this dog was, a loving part of our family for, for many years. was my, helpmate very much in many of our podcasts and shiurim [Torah lectures]. Dolly, sat on my lap, seemingly attentively, [chuckles] to what was going on for many, many hours. She was the only, tricolored Pomeranian that finished Seder Zeraim because, she did it with me.

Rabbi Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer

I know. Maybe that you could, the way he described it, maybe you can fofind a heter for the achievement, the Chareidi shevet [sector] to that it's like your service dog.

Rabbi Avraham Kivelevitz

[laughing] Here, we'll go to the shevet [sector] next week. Be well. Take care. [upbeat music] Thanks for listening and remember about that donation link in the episode show notes. And if you liked what you heard, share it with your friends. Today's episode was produced by me, Avraham Kivelovitch, with audio production from Eretz Yisrael, Artzeinu HaAkdoshah, by Ben Wallick of Experience Audio. It was edited with love by Zvi Gordon. Catch you next time. Shalom uvracha. [upbeat music]

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